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Anti-immigration activists rally, preaching mostly to themselves

Choir practice in Raleigh

25 JUN 2008  •  by Matt Saldaña



A member of the N.C. Minuteman Patriots holds a sign at ALI-PAC's anti-immigration rally June 18. The N.C. Minutemen "stand opposed to any organization based on race or one that advocates the invasion of American soil," according to its Web site.
Photo by Matt Saldaña
On the Bicentennial Mall outside the legislative building last week, a dozen immigration activists and conservative lawmakers delivered a series of red-meat tirades against undocumented immigrants, blaming them for drunken driving, gang warfare, crowded emergency rooms—and even, some insinuated, the fall of civilization.

Their rhetoric was designed not only to inflame, but also served as code: In trumping up the social and economic threats allegedly posed by undocumented immigrants, groups such as the Minutemen and Americans for Legal Immigration are tacitly justifying violence among activists—should it erupt—as the cost of defending America.

The latest threat, according to rally organizer and ALI-PAC president William Gheen, is permitting undocumented immigrants to pay their way through college. Gheen called the "emergency" rally June 18 to protest House Bill 2717, which would prohibit the state's community colleges from denying admission to illegal immigrants willing to pay out-of-state tuition—typically five times as much as the cost of in-state tuition.

No such prohibition exists within federal law. Yet last month, N.C. Community College System President R. Scott Ralls imposed a moratorium on degree-seeking students who couldn't prove their legal residency, following the recommendation of N.C. Attorney General Roy Cooper. The bill would reverse Ralls' ban, and is waiting to be heard in the House education committee.

However, bill sponsor state Rep. Pricey Harrison (D-Guilford) said in an interview that, based on its misrepresentation by anti-immigration groups, she doubted the measure would clear the committee this session. (State Reps. Paul Luebke of Durham and Rick Glazier of Cumberland County co-sponsored the bill.)

"From the e-mails that I get in opposition to the bill, it's primarily based on the fact that taxpayers don't want their money going to services provided to illegal immigrants, and they think they're taking the place of North Carolina students. Neither is the case."

During the rally, Gheen asked legislators considering Harrison's bill, "Which one of you is willing to sacrifice your children's, and your grandchildren's, place in college?"

However, of 1 million total students who attend college in North Carolina, only 144 are undocumented, according to Harrison.

"It's sort of a no-brainer to me," Harrison said. "Do you want to create productive members of society, or do you want to create a permanent underclass? From what I hear anecdotally, these kids, seeing that they don't really have a chance at a better life, are dropping out of high school and turning to crime and gangs. We ought to pay now or pay later, and it makes more sense to educate them."

The public relations strategy of ALI-PAC and the Minutemen is to equate illegal immigration with bloodshed, and they couch their language in violent terms. ALI-PAC regularly sends e-mail news alerts associating immigration with violence and ethnic warfare. Incendiary subject lines include: "Immigrants are attacking," "Battlestations: Immigrants in a Lose-Lose situation today" and "Illegals Supporters Riot in WA, marches bomb, five arrested."

Minutemen groups charge themselves with "securing the border" by patrolling for illegal immigrants. Its members focus their homespun crime-stopping on the "human flood breaching our Homeland Defense." The Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, a national group, clearly identifies the source of that flood on its Web site: It features a close-up photo of a white face with a tear streaming down it, as the Mexican flag is superimposed over an upside-down American flag.

Chris Simcox, co-founder of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, told the sprinkling of onlookers, "Too many [immigrants] are entering this country, not to take the jobs that so-called Americans won't take, but to do the crimes that we allow them to commit."

Yet the majority of crime in America is still homegrown. A report by the Public Policy Center of California found that adult males born in the United States are two and half times more likely to commit crimes than foreign-born adult men.

While Gheen acknowledged that "Yes, Americans commit crimes and Americans drink and drive," he charged "we have illegal aliens that are drinking and driving, and vicious, very dangerous, gangs in this state that are killing people ... these people are dead because the government is failing in its most basic responsibilities to the citizenry."

Defending the anti-immigration activists were several state legislators, including Republican Reps. John Blust, Dale Folwell, Wil Neumann and Paul Stam (of Wake County) and Republican Sens. Andrew Brock and Neal Hunt (also of Wake)—many of whom used the occasion to ratchet up fears of immigrants.

Folwell reminded attendees that while people with brown skin who spoke a language other than English weren't necessarily illegal, "there's a correlation." He said illegal immigration "hit home" when he walked into hospitals, ostensibly referring to the ethnicity, or language, of patients.

Folwell also offered as evidence of the "cost" of immigration the fact that "every publication" published on the issue "had to be in two languages." He then delivered this doomsday prediction: "As a student of economic history, I can tell you that there's two things that civilizations never survive: devaluation of their currency, or devaluation of their language, and these are two things Americans are facing at the same time."

During tough economic times, anti-immigration activists often use the immigration issue to try to instill fear, particularly among working-class Americans, that foreigners will displace them from their jobs. N.C. Listen Director Ron Woodard cited —wrongly—a UNC-Chapel Hill study that "pointed out that North Carolina workers are losing $1.9 billion a year due to out-of-control immigration."

In fact, UNC professors James Johnson and John Kasarda co-authored a 2006 study that found Hispanics contribute $9 billion a year to the state's economy, while saving the private sector $1.9 billion in wage costs due to labor efficiency.

"Some of these labor-cost savings keep North Carolina's businesses competitive, while others are passed on in the form of lower prices to North Carolina," the report found.

With the exception of two Latinos invited by activists, the rally was predominantly white. Gheen, who has deflected accusations of race-baiting in the past, insisted that the anti-illegal immigration movement is color-blind:

"Radical groups, to the left, are constantly injecting race into this conversation, and we wish they would stop." He added: "It is time—black, white ... Latino—every American, I mean every American, realizes that when you have 80 percent of the American public [who support] the existing [immigration] laws, that say, 'This is what needs to be done in the United States,' then that's what you do. All together."

The poll Gheen referenced was conducted in 2007 by the Civitas Institute—a North Carolina-based conservative think tank—in the midst of heated debate over an immigration reform bill sponsored by U.S. Sens. John McCain and Edward Kennedy. The Civitas poll framed the bill as providing "amnesty" to illegal immigrants, the same argument conservative talk-radio hosts used in denouncing a portion of the bill that would provide a path to eventual citizenship.

One poll question asked, "Would you be more or less likely to vote for a congressional candidate who supported immigration legislation that you believed provided amnesty for illegal aliens?" The question Gheen cited, which occurred in sequence after the "amnesty" question, asked whether the U.S. should "secure the border" and "enforce existing immigration laws"—before new legislation has passed. Presumably, the 81 percent who answered yes included both those who supported and disapproved of McCain and Kennedy's bill. In other words, the overwhelming majority of people Gheen said approve of "what is to be done," may actually want do something else about immigration.

Two speakers, Lee Anthony Nieves and Roan Garcia-Quintana, seemed intent on disassociating their Latino heritage from that of illegal immigrants.

Nieves, a "third-generation American" who represents the Latino anti-immigration organization You Don't Speak for Me, said he wanted to debunk the myth that Latinos are a "monolithic" group—and implied that some Latinos are anti-American.

"Not all Hispanics view the United States with contempt," he said. "We do not want to see a Balkanized America, separated into little ethnic tribes, like we see in today's prisons."

Garcia-Quintana, a Cuban-American who said in an interview that his family's roots are in Spain, characterized Mexican and Central American immigrants as "Indo-Hispanics" who "impose" their culture on him.

As director of Americans Have Had Enough, Garcia-Quintana said he identifies as "Southerner" and insisted he arrived here "the right way, the legal way."

"By the grace of God, I was raised in the South. I went through from Havana to Savannah, Ga. South Carolina's my home. I do speak English, and I do speak Spanish. There's nothing wrong with speaking 20 languages, but English is the language that unites us."

In South Carolina, Garcia-Quintana lobbied to strengthen local immigration laws, and warned of an invasion of undocumented immigrants to North Carolina. "When we get rid of them in South Carolina, they're coming here. So you better get ready for it."

In an interview after the rally, Garcia-Quintana alluded that vigilante justice could break out if immigration laws aren't tightened. "What I'm concerned about is that if we don't do something, people are going to take the law into their own hands," he said. "I hear a lot of people casually mention, 'I've still got my Second Amendment right.' That can only mean one thing."

39 COMMENTS

QUOTE: However, of 1 million total students who attend college in North Carolina, only 144 are undocumented, according to Harrison. UNQUOTE Ahhhhhhhh, how misleading and foolish this Harrison is. Immigration status is SELF REPORTED by the individual and not determined by the institution. Therefore, there are "only" 144 illegal aliens that are either a) arrogant enough or b) stupid enough (or both) to divulge their true immigration status as illegals. But, there are many, many more than 144. Does anyone actually think that lying and cheating aren't a regular character trait of most illegal aliens?
by Blue Rider NC 25 Jun 2008, 5:26pm Report this comment
Illegal aliens must not be allowed to attend our community colleges, colleges and universities. Even if illegal aliens were to pay out of state tuition, it would not cover the entire cost of their education because of capitol costs, often conveniently left out (or purposely lessened) in the total costs calculations. Therefore, taxpayer subsidization of illegal aliens would occur. Also, why would any legislator allow an illegal alien to take a seat in college from a deserving American citizen or legal immigrant? Seats in colleges are a limited and highly coveted resource so why should they go to ILLEGAL ALIENS? Also, why should we be in the business of educating and training a group of people who are illegally here and cannot legally be employed?
by Blue Rider NC 25 Jun 2008, 5:35pm Report this comment
The author of this article claims that immigration enforcement groups advocate violence. This is totally incorrect. Immigration enforcement groups advocate going through the legislative process, a legal means to redress grievences, to ask for enforcement of our CURRENTLY EXISTING immigration laws. On the other hand, I have seen anarchist pro-illegal advocacy groups (MeCHA, La Voz de Atzlan, Mexicanos Sin Fronteras (Mexicans Without Borders), Zapatista Army of National Liberation to name just a few) advocate violence when they protest in favor of illegal immigration and their Atzlan agenda. Additionally, other groups like CHIRLA, La Raza (the Race), El Pueblo, ACORN, LULAC, CASA all advocate the non enforcement of our country's laws in order to favor illegal immigrants. There is a big difference between the two sides that I see. Anti-illegal immigrantion groups work within the law to ask for enforcing of currently existing laws and the other side actively campaigns for no enforcement, open borders, total acceptance of illegal aliens, some even advocating violence.
by Blue Rider NC 25 Jun 2008, 5:48pm Report this comment
QUOTE: Yet the majority of crime in America is still homegrown. A report by the Public Policy Center of California found that adult males born in the United States are two and half times more likely to commit crimes than foreign-born adult men. UNQUOTE Fundamentally untrue: If the illegality of illegal immigration and the tremendous cost burden to American taxpayers (in excess of $100 billion per year -Congressmen Dean heller, Jan. 2008), our economy, our society and our culture doesn’t infuriate you, then look over just a few studies that put illegal alien crime in focus: (1) Violating the immigration law is a CRIME (2) Forging documents is a FELONY CRIME (3) Passing forged documents is a FELONY CRIME (4) Stealing ID is a FELONY CRIME (5) Using stolen ID is a FELONY CRIME A US GAO study found in a study population of 55,322 illegal aliens incarcerated, on average, each had been arrested 8 times for a total arrest figure of at least 459,614 times. If that isn't astounding enough, these 55,322 illegals in the study population had been arrested for committing 700,000 criminal offenses, which averages 13 crimes per illegal alien. So, each illegal alien incarcerated had been arrested 8 times and had committed at least 13 crimes. According to the U.S. Bureau of Prisons, in 2005, 25% of prisoners in federal prisons were illegal aliens, and 4% were legal aliens. This proportion has not gone down; if anything, it has gone up markedly. Tom DeWeese, President of the American Policy Institute states that today, illegal aliens make up twenty nine percent of the U.S. prison population. Bill O'Reilly is on record more recently stating that illegal aliens account for 32% of the federal and state prison population. The US Justice Department reported that in 2003, alone, 270,000 illegal immigrants had served prison time. The Federation for American Immigration Reform reports: "In March 2000, Congress made public Department of Justice statistics showing that, over the previous five years, the INS had released over 35,000 criminal aliens instead of deporting them. Over 11,000 of those released went on to commit serious crimes, over 1,800 of which were violent ones; including 98 homicides, 142 sexual assaults, and 44 kidnappings. In 2001, thanks to a decision by the Supreme Court, the INS was forced to release into our society over 3,000 criminal aliens who collectively had been convicted of 125 homicides, 387 sex offenses, and 772 assault charges." http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/27/114208.shtml?s=ic According to the well-respected U.S. Center for Immigration Studies (www.cis.org), incarcerated convicted illegal aliens make up 29 percent of federal, state and local prisons at a cost of more than $1.6 billion annually. This number doubles when the costs for apprehension, the justice system, public defenders, interpreters, prosecutors and the courts add to the total. Illegals represent about 8 percent of Arizona's population and the Arizona Department of Corrections reports that Mexican nationals make up 12 percent of the state's 37,200-inmate prison population. Undocumented aliens, mostly from Mexico and Central America, now total 1953 inmates in the Maricopa County Sheriff’s jail system. That number represents 21 percent of the overall inmate population of men and women housed in the nation’s third largest jail system. Sheriff Joe Arpaio says that is just small part of the story about those incarcerated in his jails. He says that recent figures show that serious crime (class four felonies and above) are committed substantially by illegal aliens. During two recent surveys, between 27 and 53 percent of all suspects booked into the jail on serious felonies had immigration holds placed on them. The vast majority of those with holds were in the United States illegally. According to the Sheriff’s figures, illegal alien inmate population numbers have grown steadily in Arizona and other border states over the last several years. In March 2005, the illegal alien population in Arpaio’s jails totaled approximately 700. (Borderfire Report 2/28/08 ) A new study shows one in five inmates in North Carolina metropolitan jails were not born in this country. The Sheriff’s Association believes a large number of those inmates are here illegally as well. (News 14 Carolina 2/21/08 ) Members of Utah’s Congressional delegation contacted DHS Secretary Chertoff requesting an additional 22 ICE agents for deportations and to investigate crimes perpetrated by undocumented immigrants. "Our jails are full. The crime rates continue to increase, and we can no longer let this problem escalate," reads one of the letters, signed by Utah's two senators and three representatives. Numerous illegal aliens are committing crimes in Utah communities with virtual impunity," The state now has 25 such agents. (Salt Lake Tribune, 03/05/2008 ) The conservative Federation for Immigration Reform contends that while illegal immigrants made up 3 percent of the total U.S. population in 2003 they made up 5 percent of the total prison population. http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_illegalsandcrime The Violent Crimes Institute conducted a study in 2006 that determined there were more than 100 sex offenders crossing our southern border daily. Data indicates that there are approximately 240,000 illegal immigrant sex offenders in the United States who have had an average of four victims each, totaling over one million sex crimes. Illegal aliens are killing more Americans than the Iraq war, says a report from Family Security Matters that estimates some 2,158 murders are committed every year by illegal aliens in the U.S. The group says that number is more than 15 percent of all the murders reported by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the U.S. and about three times the representation of illegal aliens in the general population. The report from FSM estimates that the 267,000 illegal aliens currently incarcerated in the nation are responsible for nearly 1,300,000 crimes, ranging from drug arrests to rape and murder. Such statistics debunk the claim that illegal immigration is a victimless crime. http://www.gopusa.com/news/2007/february/0222_illegals_report.shtml Crimes committed by alien criminals costs U.S. taxpayers $1.6 billion in prison costs alone. The figure doesn’t include the cost of lost property, medical bills of the victims, lost work time for injury recovery, higher insurance costs, etc. –Tom DeWeese, President of American Policy Institute. In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens. The Illegal-Alien Crime Wave: City Journal, winter 2004 http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html One thing that is never even mentioned by the champions of the illegal aliens nor is factored into any crime studies is the fact that ALL illegal aliens have a 3 – 5 crimes committed head start on American citizens (see the 5 point list above). Do you ever hear an acknowledgement from the illegal alien facilitators of the more than 50,000 Americans that have been killed by illegal aliens through murder, manslaughter and drunk driving just since 9/11/01? Of course not, that doesn't fit within their pre-determined conclusion that illegals are only hard working economically displaced ‘migrants’ that regardless of the laws they break by entering, remaining and operating in America, are only here for a better life at the expense of no one. Excuse me for being cynical but I’ve seen the data, read the studies, considered the facts and seen the reality. If you haven’t done the same, I urge you to do so without delay. Furthermore, legalizing an illegal alien’s presence in America by rewarding their illegal behavior through amnesty is not the way to build a good system of law and order. It only invites more criminal activity and non-compliance with our laws. The central question for everyone, including the facilitators, illegal alien advocates, the ‘no human being is illegal’ compassion crowd, every legislator and RESPONSIBLE MEDIA REPORTERS is this…Why should even ONE American suffer a crime OF ANY SORT at the hands of an illegal alien? With border security and zero tolerance for illegal immigration, these crimes against our citizens are essentially 100% preventable. I urge you to view this video that puts the tragedy of illegal alien crime victims into perspective: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpomTIkv0V8&feature=PlayList&p=4EED1264205A2408&index=3 Isn’t it about time that we engage in Comprehensive Immigration Enforcement rather than allow amnesty with Comprehensive Immigration Reform?
by Blue Rider NC 25 Jun 2008, 5:56pm Report this comment
To the Editors of Indy Media: Matt Saldaña is full of crap and his opinion piece 'Anti-immigration activists rally, preaching mostly to themselves' is so full of errors I will only correct the first few paragraphs. First, we had about 35 people at our rally on June 18 at the legislature, not 'a dozen'. We had about 24 activists, eight lawmakers, and six organization leaders, which isn't bad for the middle of a workday and a rally with barely two weeks to plan. We also had over 600 people listening live to an Internet broadcast of the event. Two, our organization ALIPAC has never advocated violence or spoken in mysterious codes to facilitate violence. We have, on numerous and well publicized occasions spoken out against racism and violence. Your assertion we are violent is as repugnant as it is idiotic. Three, you claim I was citing polls from the Civitas Institute showing 80% support for our efforts for immigration enforcement. You then try to discredit those specific polls. What you stooges fail to realize is that the 80% I'm talking about are now citations from hundreds of polls from hundreds of sources all across America who say the same thing. Over 80% of Americans want secure borders, immigration enforcement, and no benefits whatsoever for illegal aliens. Finally, you know full well from our name "Americans for Legal Immigration" and the well publicized and documented fact we are supported by many legal immigrants concerned about illegal immigration, that we are not anti-immigrant. This hatchet job of make believe news is more appropriately placed with the scribbling in bathroom stalls, instead of masquerading as news in the Indy. It is such a shame that your publication is so riddled with moral and ethical shortcomings that you would expose yourself so easily to ridicule for lying so extensively. But then again, that is why my side of this debate is making headway, while your side is floundering. Each time one of you left wing elitists writes a hateful fiction piece like this, we win and you lose. People see our side telling the truth and standing with the people, while they see your side lying and scrambling to do all you can to attack our character, instead of focusing on the issues. People instinctively sense the weakness of your position when you do that. Thank you for the free exposure that overreaches to the point of harming your side and helping mine. William Gheen http://www.alipac.us
by LightMyWay , California 25 Jun 2008, 6:00pm Report this comment
HERE'S WHAT NEEDS DONE IN NC: It is extremely important that North Carolina legislators recognize the fact that not only in our country, but also in NC, we have a tremendous problem with illegal immigration. Georgia, northern Virginia and South Carolina, just recently, have passed stringent anti-illegal immigration laws. Illegals from those states are, and will continue to come into North Carolina, since this state has not followed suit. We already have between 600,000 to 750,000 illegal aliens here. Many of the 500,000 illegal aliens from SC will come into NC and likely push our illegal alien population to over 1 million. It is imperative that emergency legislation be enacted this short session before legislators adjourn to combat illegal immigration and the presence of illegal aliens in NC. Furthermore, stop HB 2717...illegal aliens must not be allowed to attend our community colleges, colleges and universities. Even if illegal aliens were to pay out of state tuition, it would not cover the entire cost of their education because of capitol costs, often conveniently left out (or purposely lessened) in the total costs calculations. Therefore, taxpayer subsidization of illegal aliens would occur. Also, why would any legislator allow an illegal alien to take a seat in college from a deserving American citizen or legal immigrant? Do I need to tell you that seats in colleges are a limited and highly coveted resource? Also, why would we be in the business of educating and training a group of people who are illegally here and cannot legally be employed? Amend the current budget to insure that no taxpayer resources are given to illegal aliens that are not absolutely federally mandated. Appallingly, illegal aliens cost the American taxpayers in excess of $100 billion dollars every year (U.S. Congressmen Dean Heller, January 2008). It is imperative that we stop all taxpayer resources possible going to illegal aliens thereby enabling them to remain and operate here. Mandate the use of the E-verify program statewide for both public and private employers. E-verify is an internet-based system operated jointly by the Department of Homeland Security and Social Security Administration. It allows businesses to check the legal status of its employees -- accurately, cheaply, and timely. It only takes seconds to get the answer! E-verify came into existence in 1997 as a limited pilot program and has been expanded, improved, and renewed over the years. 69,000 businesses are using E-Verify and it is 99.5 percent accurate. E-Verify has identified 200,000 individuals (nationwide) who were trying to gain work in the United States who were not eligible, legally, to work. That's 5 percent of the workers screened. The system has handled 4 million queries this year, including nearly a half-million from Arizona. What scares its detractors (illegal aliens, their advocates and supporters) is that it is very accurate so they rail against its use. Mandate its use in North Carolina and do it now. Institute the 287(g) enforcement program statewide. This federal program, available to states, counties and municipalities is hugely successful in removing criminal illegal aliens from local communities. Mecklenberg County, NC has used it for several years successfully and a number of other counties are in process of implementing it, as well. I’m sure you’ve heard of Sheriff Joe Arpaio in Maricopa County, Arizona. This fine sheriff has used this program on the front line of the illegal immigration border war to restore order and safety to the citizens in the Phoenix area. Be proactive, be concerned for the safety of NC citizens and restoring the rule of law to our state by mandating the use of 287(g) statewide. Do not allow any taxpayer funding for El Pueblo, a hispanic illegal alien advocacy group. This is a group, headquartered in NC with affiliations to the National Council of La Raza ("The Race"). These groups advocates exclusively for hispanic causes, and promotes illegal immigration to the detriment of all other cultures and races and in direct violation of our immigration laws.
by Blue Rider NC 25 Jun 2008, 6:04pm Report this comment
The fact of the matter is that not only are illegal aliens law-breaking criminals by virtue of their illegal entry or intentional visa overstays, most are also liars & cheaters (filing fraudulent immigration applications including asylum, immigrant petitions and adjustments of status from non-immigrant visas; fabricating/obtaining for use fraudulent documents) and thieves (theft of taxpayer funded services meant for citizens; stealing identities to hold jobs illegally and operate here). And these are the people that business' only interested in the cheapest labor possible are employing and advocating for turning into newly minted citizens.
by Blue Rider NC 25 Jun 2008, 6:59pm Report this comment
Just yesterday I read an interesting article detailing how newspapers all acrosss America are crashing and burning financially. This story is a prime example of the facts behind that article. Instead of telling the truth, this reporter elects to insert his own biases in his his article. Lies, half truths and political correctness is his order of the day. Anything that can put criminal alien invaders and their employers in a good light is the truth that he seeks. To hell with the truth, what matters to him is an agenda to pretend that our laws do not exist or that certain groups of people are exempt from them. It is articles like this that makes Americans want to get up and run to the bathroom to throw up. This idiot reporter has his head so far up his fouth point of contact that he would not recognize the truth even if he stumbled over the top of it. It is also articles like this that make Americans give up reading newspapers because the truth doesn't matter anymore. What matters to these newspapers is to insert articles composed of mostly bullcrap, feel good lies and hope we don't see the truth for what it is. Is it any surprise that newspapers are going bankrupt? To them it is, but to the American people we see the lies, so we decide to find the truth in other ways. We are giving up on newspapers because they have forgotten that their mission is to print the truth. And I will bet that this newspaper is crashing and burning for the same exact reasons that others are experiencing in every state in the union. Their mission is to report all the lies that are fit to print, to hell with the truth, and are becoming extinct because of it.
by loneprotester , Columbia, SC 25 Jun 2008, 7:47pm Report this comment
This is typical Indy drabble. Like we didn't know that they would print an opinion piece like this. If an illegal alien can afford to pay out of state tuition, then they can afford to get their butts in line for citizenship. If they don't want citizenship, then pay for a student visa. If you are not a citizen of this country but you want to attend school here, then you need a student visa or you don't get admitted. Period. End of story. Why should I allow people to go to my tax supported schools who are not citizens or who have not paid for the priviledge to attend a school here in the US. If you liberal hacks want to send an illegal alien to school, then you and the other liberals can donate your own money to the cause. If people "can't afford" to work their way to citizenship or purchase the priviledge to attend school in the US as a non-citizen, too bad. Go to school in your own country. I challenge the Indy to put up or shut up. If you want to send illegals to school, start a fund to help these people get visas and do it the legal way. Otherwise, you are just another socialist mouthpiece for the radical left that offers no solutions, but instead creates more and more problems for society.
by Whoisthat? Carrboro 25 Jun 2008, 10:42pm Report this comment
Just saw you El Futuro story. Why don't you libs get together and donate your own personal money to El Futuro. It seems like a good cause. Mental health services are important. Our mental health system in NC is already over-stressed just trying to pay for our own citizens, let alone public funding for illegals. I bet not one of you libs will give as much as one dollar to this organization. Why? Because you are a bunch of hypocrites, that's why. You only want to spend other people's money on social services. Again, if supporting illegal aliens is so important to you libs, lets see you raise $60,000 dollars for El Futuro. The liberal community in the Triangle is all talk. I would personally like to see a donation from Congressman Price and state senator Kinnaird to this cause. They are big supports of illegal aliens. Let's see them put their money where their mouths are. Same for you, Matt Saldana. I want to see a list of people who made contributions and the amounts they contributed. Come on libs! Stand up for what you believe in! Lead by example.
by Whoisthat? Carrboro 25 Jun 2008, 11:04pm Report this comment
Mainstream media print and broadcast, is filled with stories of illegal immigrant problems daily all across this country. Even the small local publications report on issues stemming from illegal immigration. Only the most brain-washed radical liberal would swallow the regurgitiated bolongna I have just read here. Even a learning impaired ten year old could see this is a hit piece designed to generate support for the oben-borders crowd as they continue to attempt to perpetrate the greatest deception ever unleashed on the American public. The "reporter" who wrote this column deserves a few weeks off without pay to collect his thoughts and get back on track. We older folks remember what "yellow journalism" looks and smells like and what I have seen here in print brings to mind the word "putrid"...Don't you guys have an editor?
by dumbfounded Chapel Hill 26 Jun 2008, 3:43am Report this comment
LightMyWay writes:
To the Editors of Indy Media: Matt Saldaña is full of crap and his opinion piece 'Anti-immigration activists rally, preaching mostly to themselves' is so full of errors I will only correct the first few paragraphs. First, we had about 35 people at our rally on June 18 at the legislature, not 'a dozen'. We had about 24 activists, eight lawmakers, and six organization leaders, which isn't bad for the middle of a workday and a rally with barely two weeks to plan. We also had over 600 people listening live to an Internet broadcast of the event.
So, by your count, you had eight lawmakers and six organizational leaders at your event, or 14 people delivering speeches. Counting yourself, there were seven organizational leaders who made speeches, but only six out of the eight lawmakers you had announced showed up. That makes an even baker's dozen. We decided to go with 'a dozen.' As for the 24 'activists' in the crowd, they don't count as speakers. And the 600 people listening online? They weren't actually there, either.
Also, I'd like to take a look at polling data for the 'hundreds of polls from hundreds of sources all across America' that arrive at the same 80 percent figure as the John W. Pope Civitas poll. You invited Jameson Taylor from Civitas to speak to those numbers, and those are the numbers I analyzed in the story.
by Matt Saldana, Indy Staff Writer (msaldana@indyweek.com) Raleigh 26 Jun 2008, 7:50am Report this comment
To further clarify, 24 'activists' is another way of saying that two dozen people showed up.
by Matt Saldana, Indy Staff Writer (msaldana@indyweek.com) Raleigh 26 Jun 2008, 7:56am Report this comment
Given that Mr. Saldana mentions our poll in his recent response, I wanted to direct your readers to examine our polling data themselves. The data can be found here: http://www.nccivitas.org/media/publication-archive/fact-sheet/immigration-enforcement-and-reform-what-voters-want Our poll only polls registered voters who have voted in the last three elections. As you can see from the results, voter opinion on this issue is constant. The majority of North Carolinians (79%) believe immigration is a burden to our state. They also support the 287(g) program (91%); oppose allowing illegal aliens to attend community colleges (68%); and oppose giving non-emergency benefits to illegal alien adults (81%). While it is true that the ALIPAC rally did not draw a large crowd, that does not mean that this issue is not important to voters. Our polling demonstrates that it is. Moreover, Mr. Saldana's not so veiled suggestion that immigration reformers are racist and violent is ridiculous and unfair. The best protection for every minority is equal application of the law and this is primarily what immigration reform and enforcement is about. Jameson Taylor (nccivitas.org)
by Jameson Taylor (jamesont@nccivitas.org) Raleigh 26 Jun 2008, 10:20am Report this comment
Anyone can explain to me why an undocumented immigrant, who pays property and sales taxes, which are unavoidable, can't attend community college? In which way is he "taking a away a place" from an American citizen?
by Mongo (mongo@itsnofun.com) , GA 26 Jun 2008, 10:33am Report this comment
The greatest thing about the print edition of the Independent is being free from a roving pack of assholes who must throw in their two cents(as if they were worth even that) as comment posts on the article. Since we're here, and since I am pulling about my membership card as I type this, I have to say that I have several problems with this article, and it seems to be an ongoing concern. Which is a troubling thought, since every city(even a small once) should be able to support a discursive independent newspaper for the public. The Indy is generally aimed toward citizens of a more liberal persuasion, which is fine, I'm one of them, but this article is little more than throwing paint at a very complex issue, and it is outright propaganda to undermine the issue by using what you think of as lackluster efforts and results to pad your cause. Not only is that bad journalism, it is unethical, which is a position nobody would like to be in on such a polarizing issue. Covering a protest is fine with me, but when admonishing a group for inflammable "rhetoric", when you are doing the same albeit in your own veiled way, it does nothing in the end but tread water on the issue while the preaching falls to the converted anyhow. Sure, you have all of these posters such as the "blue rider"(which I must admit provokes some image of a phantasmagorical klansmen to me), and I can't take these people seriously anyhow, when one tenet of their argument is the fact that illegals won't learn english, and one post here starts off with: "HERE'S WHAT NEEDS DONE IN NC." Well, he-ell, Leroy, meet me at Gobbler's Neck and we'll throw down. None of the authors that I've seen in the Independent, and none of their detractors for that matter, would qualify to me as a "radical", and yet everyone is quick to point fingers and use touch terms loosely. I implore integrity, which we don't get from the mainstream media, which is all the more reason why need it here.
by black dog 26 Jun 2008, 11:04am Report this comment
Hey Matt, 24 activists, 8 lawmakers (two showed up late and did not speak because their Trans committee held them up), six leaders myself included that's three dozen. I guess math is a challenge to creative writers. The 80% polls, go right ahead and dig in at www.alipac.us They are all over the place. It would be nice to see you actually research something BEFORE you write about it in a shallow attempt to quickly review and discredit. We have done our homework and we know we are right which gives us almost complete protection from your smear attempts. My belief is gone! My belief is Gone! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SREZ-ggSDjM
by LightMyWay , California 26 Jun 2008, 2:09pm Report this comment
Lightmyway Hey Matt, 24 activists, 8 lawmakers (two showed up late and did not speak because their Trans committee held them up), six leaders myself included that's three dozen. I guess math is a challenge to creative writers. Hey, Lightmyway, read the article. Matt says in the article "a dozen activists and conservative lawmakers delivered a series of red-meat tirades". He makes no mention of total attendance at the event. While this doesn't prove Matt isn't challenged by math, it does show that you need to work on your "reading for comprehension".
by JohnD Raleigh 26 Jun 2008, 7:22pm Report this comment
Hey JohnD! I see you are still the perennial eye-poker for the Indy staff. I wish I had time to engage you in debate again, but without that lawyer wife of yours to coach you it isn't worth the effort. BTW- Did you two ever sign that Affidavit of Support I suggested last year to get yourselfs aligned to financially support an illegal alien, or are you still jockeying for position to force the rest of America to pay the bills? Wait, I bet I know the answer to that one...
by dumbfounded Chapel Hill 27 Jun 2008, 3:13am Report this comment
Just like the conservatives to not think of the future (e.g., environmental policies, energy resources, education, women's rights, emergency preparedness), thereby debilitating our society and pissing me off. Consider a few generations from now, when the grandchildren of these "illegal immigrants", who left extreme poverty to risk their lives and the well-being of their families at home (only severe desperation could justify such risk), are grown, and surely filling our streets with homelessness, our prisons with criminals, our slums with poor requiring government assistance - a permanent class of poor, uneducated PEOPLE, who have come to this position because of the lack of opportunities of them and their parents to learn, to work, and to become productive members of a rich and colorful society. Why repress them? Why keep them in the slums and the prisons? Why not educate them? It doesn't make any sense. Anyone who wishes to keep immigrants in a subordinate and impoverished class is selfish and greedy, and I dare say racist (before you dispute this, take a good look at yourself in the mirror and think about it). Here's an idea - ANYONE willing to pay out-of-state tuition (which is ridiculously high) to EDUCATE themselves in order to better themselves and society SHOULD BE ABLE TO! I am surprised there are even 100 "illegal immigrants" in the state able to pay those prices. I will also be surprised if people on the other side of this issue value education at all, in their own lives, in the lives of their children, and in the lives of ALL children in America. The only way to better America is to educate Americans (i.e., ANYONE IN AMERICA). I will spare all readers from a barrage of meaningless and repetitive posts as some have done.
by AndyP Durham 27 Jun 2008, 9:00am Report this comment
Dumbfounded Good to see you again! You went and changed your named didn't you? Actually, I was just pointing out that Lightmyway fails at reading. He and Matt are both saying the same thing. There were about a dozen speakers at the event.

As for the affidavit, I've actually changed my mind on immigration. I'm against all of it. I mean, seriously, the traffic I was driving through this morning was insane and it looked to me like most of them weren't from around here. If they hadn't come over here, my commute would have gone faster. And you're part of the problem. You couldn't have just married a nice American girl? We got literally millions to choose from, but you had to go and bring one in from another country. What sense does that make? I mean honestly, thing about, if EVERYONE did what you did, the population of the United States would DOUBLE almost overnight! What makes you so special that you should get to do something that not everyone else in the US would be allowed to do? If you really wanted to help America out you would have moved to HER country and increased the traffic on THEIR highways.

by JohnD Raleigh 28 Jun 2008, 4:58am Report this comment
Thanks for the usual depth of insight JohnD (smiling big now)! Bet you and AndyP ("P" for potato head)are lapping up overpriced beers together at the local watering hole this afternoon, while patting each other on the back for all the points you scored proving yourselves intellectually challenged. Of course you didn't sign on to support an illegal immigrant and help them out in a pinch! That's too responsible for your liberal slant, and by far too financially cumbersome. It's much better to stomp your foot and shake your finger at the problem and leave your mess for someone else to clean up after you are done with you charade. My wife and I enjoyed your post and hope to see more of them in the future. She wants to share them with other legal immigrants to show how two-faced and shallow most liberals really are and define why they cannot be trusted. Anyway, have a nice weekend and remember to attend a church near you this and every Sunday (hopefully one whre they teach the Bible and conviction of sin)!
by dumbfounded Chapel Hill 28 Jun 2008, 12:19pm Report this comment
Anyone can explain to me why an undocumented immigrant, who pays property and sales taxes, which are unavoidable, can't attend community college? In which way is he "taking a away a place" from an American citizen? They can attend college, as long as they get an F-1 visa like all of the other non-citizens who attend our universities. They
by Whoisthat? Carrboro 28 Jun 2008, 6:19pm Report this comment
Mongo, here is the answer to your questions: Title 8, U.S.C. 1324 Harboring: Subsection 1324(a)(1)(A)(iii) makes it an offense for any person who -- knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that an alien has come to, entered, or remains in the United States in violation of law, conceals harbors, or shields from detection, or attempts to conceal, harbor, or shield from detection, such alien in any place, including any building or any means of transportation. Encouraging/Inducing: Subsection 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv) makes it an offense for any person who -- encourages or induces an alien to come to, enter, or reside in the United States, knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such coming to, entry, or residence is or will be in violation of law. Conspiracy/Aiding or Abetting: Subsection 1324(a)(1)(A)(v) expressly makes it an offense to engage in a conspiracy to commit or aid or abet the commission of the foregoing offenses. It also bears mention that the measley 7 percent sales tax on items not purchased with WIC, ADC, and other social services dollars is utterly meaningless when used as a basis for argument in favor of illegal immigrants attending post-secondary institutions. As for the "property tax" you mentioned, other than the taxes paid on "personal property" to county and city tax collectors where is that money anyway? Unless the illegal actually registers a vehicle for tags instead of stealing them, how do they get into the local taxation system in the first place? Duh! Basically, Title 8, USC clearly defines the law, but it seems there is not anyone available to enforce it. Now at least you have YOUR answer.
by dumbfounded Chapel Hill 28 Jun 2008, 8:01pm Report this comment
Dumbfounded Glad to hear you enjoyed my post, but where do you get the idea that I am liberal? By most measures, I actually am a conservative Republican.

I was in the Navy for 8 years and 3 days. I voted for Bush in 2000 over Gore and supported the Iraq War when it first started. I want lower taxes and less government. I have the standard republican cognitive dissonance in that I'm in favor of the death penalty and against abortion. I do differ slightly from my party in that I believe greenhouse gases are causing some climate change, however I ardently support nuclear power as the reasonable legitimate solution.

Anyways, my point is that most people I talk to consider me a conservative.

That being said, the other place, I differ from my party is that I don't believe illegal immigration is ruining this country. While I would think it clear I was being facetious in my previous post, the point I was making was that picking a single minor point (whether it's traffic or an illegal getting to pay out-of-state tuition at a community college)and trying to make it into a big deal is just asinine.

Think about it, are these really the illegals we want to target? They're going to a freakin community college AND paying out of state tuition for it! Honestly, hat's not the ones I'm worried about.

Look, if you guys, (Dumbfounded & Lightmyway & Blue Rider & everyone else who thinks illegal immigration is a huge big deal) really want to change my mind on this here's what you got to do. Break it down for me about how much of my tax dollars are going to fund an illegal immigrants community college education. I paid right around $30,000 in income tax last year, state and federal. Now out of those taxes, how many my dollars went to subsidize an illegal immigrant paying out of state tuition? IN FACT, for your numbers, I'm fine with assuming that the problem gets worse. LOTS worse. So don't just count the 100-some enrolled now that are probably illegal. Just go ahead and say 50% of everyone paying out of state tuition is here illegally. How much money are they taking out my pocket?

Again, just to restate this, I'm an not pro-illegal immigration. But illegal immigration does not seem to me to be that big a deal. And that's probably why you only had 3 dozen or so people show up and 600 people in the whole United States tune in.

Now you can come out with all the statistics you want about how illegal immigrants commit more crime and drink and drive more and sponge off the system, but that's contrary to my experience. Most that I've met are pretty hard working and decent.

I guess what it boils down to for me, is that if someone is making the effort to come live here in America to make a better a life for themselves, then more power to them. And if they had to commit a victimless crime to do it, then that's pretty minor. It's not right, but it's not a big deal. It's kind of like if a really hot chick trespasses on someones property in order to make it to a date with you on time. Hey, even though it didn't hurt anybody you shouldn't have broken the law there. But I like where your head is at! ;-)

Give your wife my best, Dumb.

by JohnD Raleigh 30 Jun 2008, 8:55am Report this comment
Anyone can explain to me why an undocumented immigrant, who pays property and sales taxes, which are unavoidable, can't attend community college? In which way is he "taking a away a place" from an American citizen?

Whoisthat? responds They can attend college, as long as they get an F-1 visa like all of the other non-citizens who attend our universities. They

Whoisthat? what benefit does an F-1 visa provide? How does that contribute anything meaningful other than giving some bureaucrat a job shuffling more meaningless pieces of paper?

by JohnD Raleigh 30 Jun 2008, 9:03am Report this comment
Morning JohnD! First, thank you for your 8 year contribution in service to our country. I hope you will continue to serve as a concerned citizen. That said, I will not invest a lot of my time digging out statistics on your behalf, if for no other reason than basic common sense. First, you would challenge each statistic presented in an effort to drag this exchange on continuously (You do like debating don't you John?), and secondly, it is no concern of mine how you personally are impacted financially by the effects of illegal immigration. I would think that an issue you would invest your own time in, but I'm betting unless and until the fridge and the gas tank are empty you aren't going to concern yourself too much with such trivialities. I guess that rationalization is what led me to peg you as a liberal in the first place. I will however point out that the facts are readily available for all to see in countless locations on the internet if you find the time to Google about once in a while. The difficult part for folks with mindsets like yours however is discerning the truths sprinkled so liberally among the growing mass of lies and misinformation. Like they say, "the devil is in the details". Building upon that premise, let me say John that your information is somewhat flawed. First, there are far more than any 100 illegal immigrants attending NC community colleges and state universities. What you failed to recognize (probably because you do your "research" in venues such as Indy) is that legal resident status is SELF-REPORTED insomuch as what numbers surface for statistical reporting by the media. There are NO REQUIREMENTS during the application process to report your legal status, ergo the low number of reported illegal immigrant students. Check it out if you doubt my assertion. It's as simple as a download or a phone call. Moving on to the out-of-state tuition rate paid by illegals, do you actually believe THEY pay it? If in fact they are unfortunate enough to list themselves as non-resident or "undocumented", rest assured they are being supported by grants and endowments to cover the tuition costs. Where does that money come from John, the tobacco or melon fields down East? Maybe the illegals working in construction destroying the wage base and displacing American workers manage to set aside money for their kids education after paying the household bills and sending some home to their families there? How naive are you John, or maybe I should ask how indifferent? For the record, and in response to your question, I don't agree with "targeting" anyone. There are a multitude of sins to be addressed here, and each of us has a measure of responsibility to answer for. After all, if people like you and I had not been complacent for so long this would today be a non-issue. As for changing your mind, only you can do that and I personally believe you have it too good right now to worry about it much. Rest assured however that the traffic congestion you so fallaceously eluded to in your previous taunting post will be the least of your worries once reality begins to set in. You and yours are not immune to the effects of illegal immigration, be it economically, socially, or geo-politically. Here's a radical idea for ya! Get your head in the game as a conservative and actually work at conservation with something other tan lip-service or throwing money at problems. Do a little research and get the facts for yourself. I didn't want to spend the time and effort either, but the more I learned the more I recognized I needed to know. Another thing, John. Forget that ridiculous notion that victimless crimes exist. That is fallacy, and your wife (an attorney) should be able to sort it out for the both of you. Even when the only one who suffers is "the state" there is a victim. As a matter of fact, when "the state" suffers the victims are all of us. Crime is crime, whether it impacts one or many, and laws were established (and should be enforced) after due consideration and for valid reasons. Sure, time renders many laws still on the books (no spitting) inconsequential or meaningless, but the way to address that problem is to repeal the laws, not ignore them. Speaking of that word (ignore), your attorney-spouse might also remind you that ignorance of the law is no excuse for violation of it. Ask the judge! My question to you John, is how long will you allow yourself to remain ignorant, and how long will you view conditions around you simply with respect to how you (and yours) alone are directly impacted, with no regard to impact on your peers? If your military service was anything more than a boatride, 3 squares and a cozy rack, and a free education at taxpayer expense, then somewhere along the line you picked up some patriotism. Poke around and dig it out, then use it! Get below the surface and fire up that sonar sailor, and turn on the radar too. Everything coming at you isn't so easily spotted from the bridge with binos! Happy Independence Day and God Bless America!
by dumbfounded Chapel Hill 30 Jun 2008, 10:14am Report this comment
Over the next two decades, the 80,000,000 Americans born between 1946 and 1963 (the "Baby Boomers") will be retiring from the U.S. work force. Who will make up the loss to our work force and our economy? Will more and more U.S. businesses be forced to move to China and Mexico to find the workers they need? How will we compete in world markets with China and Mexico if they have more young and able workers than we have? Who is going to pay the taxes and care for those 80,000,000 oldsters? Can immigration help mitigate this huge population problem we have? What do you think?
by Concerned Father Durham 30 Jun 2008, 11:52am Report this comment
Well, Dumbfounded you have made a couple of incorrect assumptions. The most egregious error is that you assume since I pose a question that I have not researched the answer. I posed the question to you because I felt you would learn more from it found the answers yourself, but it seems the idea of "readily available facts" and what you believe they say are enough for you. Actual facts are not relevant to influencing your decision making as your mind is made up.

The fact of the matter is that only about 3% of ALL the students attending Community College pay out of state tuition. (http://www.ncccs.cc.nc.us/Statistical_Reports/collegeYear2006-2007/docs/ANNTBL10_2006-2007.pdf )Now for the sake of argument, let's say that ALL of those out-of-staters are here illegally since self-reporting may indeed result in liars. Now then out-of-state tuition is approximately 6 times that of in-state tuition (you can find that on their website as well). And according to the State Budget website the community college system brought in ~165 million dollars in tuition this last year. (Table 3 of http://www.osbm.state.nc.us/files/pdf_files/2007feereport.pdf ) And it goes on to say that 13% of their total budget is paid by tuition. 69% comes from the state and another 5% from federal funds (the rest is just listed as other, presumbably grants and private donations to the schools). So a little quick math shows that total budget for the Community College is ~$1.27 billion dollars and they receive $939 million in funding from taxes. Also from the NCCS statistical data, they had a total enrollment of 809,091 students. Then 3% of those students paid ~18% of the tuition and fees. And they used 3% of the total services provided (3% of 1.27 billion) which is 38.1 million. They paid 18% of 165 million, so 29.7 million. So they got the benefit of 8.4 million dollars they didn't pay in. That works out to be $346 per person. Of which only 74%/87% = 85.1% is taxpayer dollars. So 294 dollars. Now these are rough numbers, but you can see pretty easily just by the magnitude of the difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition, that these individuals are receiving precious little of my tax dollars. In fact, they almost certainly contribute well more than that amount to the system via property taxes, sales taxes, and court costs for all their DUIs.

Now then your assertion that the illegal aliens aren't paying tuition, but rather "being supported by grants and endowments", I call BS on that. A big huge honkin' BS. A simple look at the eligibility requirements for pretty much all education grants and student loans shows that being a resident is required. Now granted, I didn't check ALL the possible grant and endowment sources, but I look pretty thoroughly. I checked Pell Grants, National SMART Grants, Academic Competitiveness Grants, and North Carolina Community College Grants. ALL of those require at least proof of US Citizenship. I did not find ANY grants that didn't require proof of citizenship. So which grants are you thinking they're getting? Cause I have to tell you I think you're making that all up.

Now then, I don't think I'm "immune" to the effects of illegal immigration. In fact just the opposite! The fact that I'm NOT feeling the effects of illegal immigration is the whole problem here!!!

Here, look at this way, Dumb. Let's say that you own a bunch of dogs. You raise dogs and hang out with a lot of other people who also raise dogs. You see a lot of dogs, ok? And never once have you ever been bitten by any of those dogs. You recognize it could happen, but in all the years you've raised dogs it's never happened. And then a whacko liberal group comes along and starts screaming that all non-registered dogs should be put down because they're biting and killing people all around the country! And they all need to be put down now!! And you say, "Uh, that's a load of crap. I've been around unregistered dogs and I've never been bitten, much less killed." And then they come back with their rabid response, "OPEN YOUR EYES, YOU ELITIST! They're ruining this country! YOU ARE NOT IMMUNE! Think of your peers who are out there right now being bitten!!"

Are you seeing my parallel here, Dumb? I absolutely wholeheartedly agree with you that I should not be immune. And therefore, since I have felt no ill effects from illegal immigration and we agree that it's NOT because I have some sort of special immunity, I can only assume that you and Bill Gheen and the 34 other activists out at the mall rally are quite possibly over-reacting.

Also, I've said over and over again that I agree crossing the border illegally is a crime. But I do not put it on the same level as other much more serious crimes. And I think it's amazingly ignorant when people draw the conclusion that since illegal immigrants are by definition criminals, that they are therefore more likely to commit other crimes. That's as dumb as saying speeders are more likely to be murders. Hey they broke one law already, it's a slippery slope! (Btw, recent studies show speeders are not any more likely to be murderers.)

As for you questions to me, 1) How long will I allow myself to remain ignorant?, Huh? Ignorant of what? How long will you view conditions around you simply with respect to how you (and yours) alone are directly impacted, with no regard to impact on your peers? I'm including my peers in my worldview. I'm even including you. It's just that you're an outlyer in my data set. None of my other peers have been negatively impacted by illegal immigration. None of the people I know going to Community College have been turned away because there was no more room. In fact, several of them SUPPORT illegals going to Community College because they'll pay out-of-state tuition which will help keep their in-state tuition down.

Btw, on my "free education at taxpayer expense", if you've done your time on the pond then you know it wasn't free. Even if you haven't, the GI Bill doesn't cover 100% of tuition (unless maybe if you go to Community College). So even discounting the money I paid in to the GI Bill and the 8 years I gave, even then I was coughin up some scratch to pay for school. (Or rather my meal-ticket wife was.) However, I will grant you that I got way way way way way WAY more tax payer funding of my education than any illegal immigrant here in NC.

by JohnD Raleigh 30 Jun 2008, 3:32pm Report this comment
Wow JohnD, you sure did a lot of research! If you had bothered instead to simply refer to my reply to Mongo you could have saved yourself some trouble! According to federal law (Title 8) illegal immigrants cannot work, travel, or live within the confines of the United States and anyone who helps them is subject to penalty as well. That said, why bother with the nuts and bolts of legitimizing their unlawful education? Did you think the NC Attorney General a fool? He is deferring to the Federal government for a ruling, and since they cannot rule against current law without repealing it first they in fact are trapped between a rock and a hard place. All the budgetary minutia is warrantless given those circumstances. See if you can get anyone in the General Assembly to make a declaration in favor of illegal immigrants between now and November...Do you think they are afraid of 30-something activists? Heck no! They are afraid on their constituency among the general populace and rightly so. Not everyone is so eager to rail against those who stand with the rule of law as you, and not eveyone is as concerned with self as you, so type in bold all you want, it isn't going to change the numbers my friend. BTW- I notice that no matter how many times I try to submit my comments properly divided into paragraphs I cannot. I also see no way to bold my fonts, so I guess it's safe to assume you are Indy staff and that is why your posts stick out like a sore thumb! Allow me to quote you please: "The fact that I'm NOT feeling the effects of illegal immigration is the whole problem here!!!" Well said JohnD! You are in fact not suffering from "immunity", but rather something else entirely. Patience though John, patience...everything in due time. Regarding my reference to ignorance, you did little to prove otherwise, and you're not going to be able to in a day or a month, or maybe even in a year simply because you don't want to know the truth. It IS out there for you to discover but you have to be willing to accept it. Sadly, it's going to burst your bubble once you find it. Many of us who are so vocal wish we had never started looking into it in detail, but then some had little choice. Those are the ones who were raped, or robbed, or beaten, or worse. Those are your peers whom you do not know and will likely never meet because your circle of friends does not extend that far out from the center of your universe. I guess I am just not up to scale with you Johnny boy, because I talk to people like these often, I get letters/emails from them, and I look into many of their eyes and see the painful truth. For that reason I say, "Get off your soapbox and walk among the people. You will learn something of the humanity on all sides of this issue." It's been a pleasure as usual "John".
by dumbfounded Chapel Hill 1 Jul 2008, 3:29am Report this comment
Well, so much for not being able to bold the font. Appears to be self-initiating so maybe you aren't an Indy staffer after all. That's certainly a plus for you! Anyway, thanks for the memories John!
by dumbfounded Chapel Hill 1 Jul 2008, 3:34am Report this comment

dumbfounded: while html is certainly magical, it's not "self-initiating." here are the tags for what you're looking to do:

to start a paragraph, type < p > (without the spaces; i have to use spaces here, or else i'll just get a paragraph break)
to end a paragraph, type < /p > (without the spaces)
to start bolding, type < b > (without the spaces)
to end bolding, type < /b > (without the spaces)

all permitted html tags are listed on our Post Your Comment page, right above the box where you type your comment.

sometimes tags are not closed properly, resulting, as it did here, in the following text being bolded as well. i've now closed that tag and fixed that problem. thanks for alerting me!

by Denise, Indy Editorial Web Director (dprickett@indyweek.com) Durham 1 Jul 2008, 12:07pm Report this comment
Well, as with many of things you've felt it "safe to assume", you are incorrect. I am not an Indy staffer. I can not imagine I ever will be an Indy staffer.

And the bolding of your posts was not self-initiating, that was my fault. I didn't use the bold tag correctly. (Now if the Indy would enable Edits or even Previews on posts then that would be nice and I could go back and fix these mistakes myself when I post. I'm looking at you here, Denise! ;-) ).

Btw, I did the read the statute you quoted. Now I personally think it's kind of a stretch to apply to it to the Community College system. They are not "concealing" or "shielding from detection" any illegals. In fact, they're reporting them. I don't see how letting people who may be here illegally pay out of state tuition for basic education is violating that statute.

However, I will agree with you that since the Attorney General has given his interpretation, the colleges don't have much choice in the matter. You can't say, "Hey AG, how should we interpret this law?" and then ignore him when he gives you an answer you don't like. I will even go so far as to concede that the AG probably knows more about the subject than I do and might well be able to convince me that letting illegals go to college is indeed somehow a violation of that statute. I don't see it right now, but I could be persuaded on that one.

And I think you're right about the General Assembly. Anyone there voting for anything pro-immigration would be committing political suicide right now. However, I'm not about changing the world, I'm just sharing my opinion. My opinion is that letting some guy or girl who wants to get an education essentially "pay retail" to attend a Community College is not a bad thing. Since the AG has said that's currently against the statute then I would support rewriting the statute.

Let's be realistic. Let's say we do forbid anyone without papers from attending college. We put officers on the campuses and anyone who applies that can't produce their papers is sent off to a detention camp to be deported. What has that really gained us? We've saved the state some cash cause now those immigrants won't be stealing their 300 bucks worth of free learnin'. But other than that single positive, I think it would have a lot of negatives.

Whoopee.

That being said, I don't think you're giving me enough credit for the broadness of my circle of friends. I've lived in a lot of different places and known a lot of different people. I've even got a black friend that I hang out with every now and then just to make sure everyone knows I'm not racist. And I know a guy who knows a guy who met a guy who actually MET a real life hispanic person. So clearly, with this diversity of experience why is it I'm not meeting any of these people who were "raped, or robbed, or beaten, or worse" presumably by illegal immigrants?

"...you don't want to know the truth..."

lol, ok, now you're starting to sound like the X-Files. Look, if there's some startling truth out there then just tell me about it. And why is it all these victimized people are sending you emails and letters and not me? You're already convinced. They're just preaching to the choir there. I'm the one who's not convinced that people coming here illegally are the root of all evil.

"[The truth] IS out there for you to discover but you have to be willing to accept it."

Man... You really are going to love this new X-Files movie aren't you? You know I like you, Dumb, but I have to say that's the biggest load of drivel. THAT is not how "truth" works. Truth is not dependent on acceptance. It either is or it isn't.

Let me put it to you this way, were you against illegal immigration before you had any of these supposed "readily available facts" that are on "countless locations on the internet"? Did you actually do any research of all of this and then come to your conclusion? If so, share with me those facts you used. Tell me what were the persuasive facts for you.

I suspect that you came to this issue in much the same way many Arabs address the issue of Israel. You have your preconceived notions and you're aren't going to let in any "facts" that don't support that opinion.

Look, I came to the whole "illegal immigration" discussion when I first moved to NC way back when with no idea what my opinion would be on the topic. (It wasn't much of an issue in Hawaii.) But to come to my opinion I looked at the array of information available, and just simply don't see facts to support your so-called truth. I see a lot of your perceptions that you want to pass off as facts.

"Illegals are taking precious spots at Community Colleges away from native Americans." Really? How many people did the Community College system turn away last year cause they were overbooked?

"Illegals aren't even really paying the out-of-state tuition, they're just taking grants and endowments away from more deserving real Americans." Really? Name one grant that you can get when you have no proof of citizenship.

"The Indy's a bunch of bleeding heart liars cause they said we only had a dozen people at our rally and really we had three dozen. Waaaaaaaah!" Uh, no, the Indy said you had a dozen speakers and that's about what you had. Though a case probably could be made that they are mostly bleeding heart liars.

by JohnD Raleigh 1 Jul 2008, 4:09pm Report this comment

what benefit does an F-1 visa provide? How does that contribute anything meaningful other than giving some bureaucrat a job shuffling more meaningless pieces of paper?

Nothing really, in my opinion. But there are many people who have come here legally and have paid a lot of money to be able to stay here legally through green cards, citizenship, and whatever other means there are. If we are going to accept Latinos (the overwhelming majority are Latinos, and no, I'm not going to make an effort to look up the data) with open arms, then we should accept all people. Why spend billions in taxpayer money for Immigration and Customs Enforcement when so many in this country don't want enforcement. Enforce it where people want it enforced. We have cities like San Fransisco and Carrboro who give the Feds a big middle finger when it comes to immigration and they can get away with it. Let the taxpayers in those towns and counties deal with it. It's common sense that most illegal immigrants do not have health insurance. Counties have to take on that burden through Medicaid. Is it coincidence that Orange County has the highest county tax rate in NC, or that Carrboro, with it's $1.8072/$100 tax rate is the highest in NC? Is this all due to illegal immigration? No, but you would be naive to think that it does not a play a part. Luckily, I am only a temporary resident and renting, so I do not have to pay property taxes here, but, Carrboro is a very liberal town, as we all know, and the people here support illegal immigration, therefore, they will have to pay the price, whatever it may be. Do the hispanics in Carrboro bother me? No, not at all. I'm sure they are all very nice people, just like everybody else. Where do we draw the line however? Should the US open the door to the world and say, "come on over?"

The government should work on making the guest worker program easier to maneuver through for people who want to come here to work, but I realize that asking a federal bureaucracy to make itself efficient is asking too much. It's a tough situation that will probably not get resolved either way. Things will likely remain status quo, with cities that enforce immigration laws, and those that do not.

by Whoisthat? Carrboro 1 Jul 2008, 9:08pm Report this comment
Well, Whoisthat? I don't really disagree with much that you said in your most recent post. I agree that an F1 Visa adds no real value and since it adds no value, the next logical conclusion is that we shouldn't do it. Right?

Now, you ask if it's coincidence that Carrborro has a higher than average tax rate and a higher than average population of illegal immigrants. Accepting that both of those are true, that doesn't necessarily mean there is a cause-and-effect relationship there. In fact, in this specific instance I'd say it's far more likely that there is a common-cause relationship. By that I mean, the same liberals who are likely to vote in a high tax rate are also likely to be less harsh on illegal immigration. And obviously, illegal immigrants are going to tend towards localities that aren't subjecting them to harsh treatment.

And in the end, I would agree with you that these communities should be the ones that are watched as a litmus test as it were for the effect illegal immigrants have on a community. If next year, most citizens of Carrborro have been raped, robbed, or otherwise molested by a Latino illegal immigrant then we'll know that's it a bad idea.

Thanks, Carrborro!

by JohnD Raleigh 1 Jul 2008, 9:48pm Report this comment
Thanks for the heads-up Denise. My bad for overlooking the mice type.

Well JohnD, you got me you did. I had given up trying to convince you of anything, (much like our last exchange) but since you seem to have mellowed a little I'll share just a little more with you.

First I stand by my assertion,"The truth] IS out there for you to discover but you have to be willing to accept it". Maybe I should have however, also said you have to go and find it too. I invested the time to look the stuff up and make the contacts and if it becomes important to you, so also will you. I don't feel the need to become your mentor on the subject of illegal immigration and you certainly don't strike me as the type easily taught, so instead accept what you live for and take the challenge. I will however explain to you why I get the contacts you mentioned and you don't. It's simple my dear Watson, they don't have your phone number or email address, and you don't have a website or blog on the subject which might enable interaction with you. You also don't network with other activists who pummel you with information on every inter-related subject from A to Z night and day, and likely don't subscribe to news wires and email alerts from across the US and across the big pond. Like you said, you know a guy, who knows a guy, who had a friend...Isn't that just the way most of our peers operate when forming opinions (e.g. "liberals")? So who can fault you, right? Get just enough information to be able to talk about a subject, but only enough to talk...What's that old expression? Oh yeah, "If you can't dazzle 'em with your brilliance, baffle 'em with your bullshit!" (No offense intended and any similarity to said paraphrase could be hazardous to your health)

For the record, I don't recall taking issue with Indy's head count as a matter of record and really don't much care how it appeared in print. I was there and know that the numbers that did the lobbying were the ones that mattered most. I don't mind saying that I am disappointed there were not more on the street outside, but I think the reasons for that should be obvious by now and it isn't because no one cared. They just didn't care enough.

Maybe you were also be "fallaceous" again, but certainly you do not need a local "litmus test as it were for the effect illegal immigrants have on a community" as you so casually suggested. Get to Googling my man and you'll find that the verdict is already in. That is the reason a growing number of activists are so vocal, and you'd probably already know that if you weren't looking at this as "someone else's" problem. Maybe if I were paying 30K/yr. in income taxes I'd be a little less integrated in the fray myself?

As far as those "preconcieved notions" you incorrectly assumed I came to the table with you couldn't be more wrong. I, like you once had no opinion on the subject and could not have cared less about it having a nice paycheck and a comfortable home. I got involved with immigration issues when my wife and I became involved (please skip the insulting retort)and I saw first-hand the flaws in the system, as well as the masses that skirt the laws altogether. I got to meet people IN the system, people following the guidelines, and of course those who are not and do not. I also got to meet victims of the system and a lot of people like yourself who have what they percieve to be a reasonable understanding of the situation but are barely clued-in to the big picture. The only reason you fit that category is because you prefer to know only enough to converse and not enough to get involved. Like I said before, take the challenge!

Well John, I think my time at Indy is done. It's been swell, but if you still don't get it then go ahead and be part of the problem instead of part of the solution. You'll certainly have plenty of company. At least when the day comes (and it will), you can look back and say,"Maybe that guy knew what he was talkin' about".

by dumbfounded Chapel Hill 3 Jul 2008, 12:06am Report this comment
JohnD (and others) here's a little teaser to get your research started off on the right foot. I hope a government report will be compelling enough to whet your appitite for more. Bear in mind the report contains data two years old or older and the situation has further deteriorated since then. Forget the conjecture and go here to see some facts: http://www.house.gov/mccaul/pdf/Investigaions-Border-Report.pdf
by dumbfounded Chapel Hill 3 Jul 2008, 9:03am Report this comment
Sorry to be a run-on here but stumbled onto this info and thought it might be a useful read for you JohnD, Matt, Mongo, and others...Forget about demonizing the author and just read the reviews...facts are still facts no matter where you find them!

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=The+New+Case+Against+Immigration%2C+Both+Legal+and+Illegal&x=13&y=20

by dumbfounded Chapel Hill 5 Jul 2008, 8:06am Report this comment
Since the issue in which the article in questions was written "the pink issue" perhaps ILLEGAL could have been inbolded and inserted in pink in front of immigration in every instance within the story. I am neither left or right of this conversation. As a Constituionalist I see only the fact that ILLEAGAL immigrants are here well ILLEGALY? Constitution- Amendment XIV, Section 1. All Persons born or NATURALIZED in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction therefore are citizens of the United States and the state wherein they reside. I myself am not against IMMIGRATION just against ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. The right to assemble is also a Constitutional Right. I personally do not think that the activists there were ANTI-IMMIGRATION, I believe they are ANTI ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, which if most polls available out there from both sides of your media (left and right) are correct, the MAJORITY of AMERICANS (again left and right) are against ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. Not IMMIGRATION, ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.
by supernova Raleigh 23 Jul 2008, 12:56am Report this comment
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