Describing those who are against illegal immigration in the same breath with the KKK gives the impression that the former are in league with the latter. 'Tain't so. You'd be surprised at the numbers of progressives who are not against immigration--heck, most all of us are immigrants here. Rather, they are against illegal immigration. That doesn't make them supporters of the KKK, as the innuendo in your article suggests. In fact, some of them have family who are trying to immigrate legally and can't get in. Meanwhile, millions of illegals waltz across our border.... It frustrates these friends of mine. I'm against illegal immigration because their willingness to work for a pittance makes it possible for employers to pay less than a living wage to people and thus supports a huge injustice that is visited not just upon the illegal immigrants, themselves, but upon those citizens who take similar jobs and, in the end, in terms of the costs to society, upon all of us. Yes, *some* illegal immigrants become entrepreneurs. Most do not. Yes, most illegal immigrants contribute to the economy by working here. But, as you point out, their working does not provide them with the social mobility they had dreamed about. And I'm not sure it provides the rest of us with that much, in the end, either. Studies have been done -- funded by those with an interest in having and providing financial services to cheap illegal labor -- showing that illegal immigrants contribute $XX million to the state's economy. However, no one has yet told me how much our economy would be benefited if the jobs taken cheaply by illegals had been filled by citizens, instead, who would not have been sending some of their earnings back to their homelands, but keeping them right here. And no one has certainly ever told me how much our economy would be benefited if those jobs had been filled by citizens who were paid a living wage for doing them. What would the "trickle up" effect be, then? I totally sympathize with those who want to come to this country. I think they are forward-thinking and brave individuals to even consider uprooting themselves and going to place where they don't know the language and the culture is very different. That doesn't mean I think they're great folks for breaking the law and coming on in simply because they want to. When people do that on my personal property, it's called breaking and entering. It's not right. It's illegal. If these people are *that* important to our economy, then let us change our immigration laws to admit them *legally*. That is to say, to admit people who *ask* to come here, legally. For those who have already come illegally--back they go! No amnesty...again. But for those who ask nicely and show a willingness to observe the laws...sure. And welcome! The next hurdle is to make sure they make at least a living wage, once they get here. My progresive friends and I would have no trouble with that.

Popfish has it right on point. I hope everyone asks these questions popfish asked in this paragraph "...However, no one has yet told me how much our economy would be benefited if the jobs taken cheaply by illegals had been filled by citizens, instead, who would not have been sending some of their earnings back to their homelands, but keeping them right here. And no one has certainly ever told me how much our economy would be benefited if those jobs had been filled by citizens who were paid a living wage for doing them. What would the "trickle up" effect be, then? " Would we need to increase impact fees if we were capturing all the remittances that are going to latin america? How are you going to feel when your property taxes go up in July yet your income has remained stagnet? I applaud the work of of the Sheriff in Wake and Charlotte. Must we abandon the American Dream for US Citizens so corporate ameria's elite continue to have double digit increases in their incomes? Popfish gave you an insight into the real issue that every US Citizen will have on his or her mind, black and white when they vote 08'. It is all about the money and when you are in a recession you take of home before you take care of quests, especially uninvited quest. Notwithstanding the comments of Rev. Barber of the NAACP, a snowball has a better chance of making it in Hades than to think that blacks who are beneath hispanics in both income and now educational achievement in the 2nd school system, will form this brown and black coalition. The very industry that lifted so provided a solid middle class income to many many blacks and whites has been taken over completely by latinos ~ construction ~. I am just so glad Lou Dobbs has moved to 7:00 pm so we can listen to the network maginations and then tune in to the real deal.

You know I normally disagree with most things the Indy writes. But on this one, I gotta say I don't disagree with them as much as I usually do. Everytime I hear this discussed someone invariably says something along the lines that they love immigrants just not immigrants who are lawbreakers and if you're here illegally then, ipso facto, you broke the law. Well, my take on it is that I don't think crossing the border is that big a deal. Ok, sure it's against the law. So is speeding. Not only do I on occasion speed, but I've even been caught at it. Why should crossing the border "illegally" be any bigger deal? I think a fair resolution would be to propose a semi-amnesty / probation. It would go something like this: anyone who is currently in the country illegally goes down to the courthouse, registers, and pays a $500 fine for having broken the law. They're then on probation for 5 years. If during that 5 years they commit a felony then they're deported. If not then welcome to America, here's a SSN, so get yourself a job at minimum wage or better and pay your taxes. Also, this whole "touch back" idea where they've got to go back to their home country first is stupid. What sense does that make? I've never understood what that is supposed to accomplish. I guess really it boils down to the fact that most of the people who are here illegally have already made more real effort to be American than I (or most of the people I know) ever did. These are the people who deserve it. Get off your high horse that they're all "criminals" because of how they came here. So what if they crossed some imaginary line in the sand without first saying "Mother, may I?".

If the main anti-immigration groups want to distance themselves from the white supremacist movement, then they should not appear on talk shows (The Political Cesspool, for example) on which such views are espoused. The rhetoric of both movements sound familiar, and it is disingenuous to say that the anti-immigration movement doesn't contain serious racists elements.

For some mainstream anti-immigration groups, such as the Federation for American Immigration Reform, the link to white supremacy groups is less ambiguous. Between 1985 and 1996, FAIR accepted $1.2 million from the Pioneer Fund, a group that participated in the eugenics program in the 1930s and still funds pseudo-scientific research into the widely disputed “intelligence gap" between whites and blacks. Choose Black America is a subsidiary of FAIR. NumbersUSA, another anti-immigration group founded by John Tanton-- who presided over FAIR during the years it accepted Pioneer Fund money-- has a section on its Web site titled "Black Americans." It reads, in bold red ink: “The interests of black Americans are clear: no amnesty, no guest workers, enforce the immigration law.” Tanton, who left the advocacy group U.S. English in disgrace after circulating a memo that contained several racial epithets, still contributes to a network of 13 anti-immigration groups, three of which the Southern Poverty Law Center has designated as hate groups. Many of these groups hold enormous sway in framing the national immigration debate.

"Describing those who are against illegal immigration in the same breath with the KKK gives the impression that the former are in league with the latter. 'Tain't so." Popfish, I don't think you're a member of the KKK. However, it's not just an "impression" that you are with the KKK on this. You definitely do agree with them on the issue of illegal immigration. I'm not saying that you should change your mind based solely on that fact, but it is true. So in a sense you ARE "in league with" the KKK in that you are both working towards a common goal (ridding the country of illegal immigrants). Saying you disagree with them on motivations or other issues doesn't change that. Now agreeing with someone that you normally completely disagree with isn't, in and of itself, a reason to change your position. (After all, I appear to agree with Matt on this and I'm not changing my position.) However, it may be worth your while to ask yourself do you really want to be on the same side of this issue as the KKK? Is crossing the border illegally really that huge a crime? Btw, another way to distinguish yourself from the KKK is to ask yourself honestly if your answer is still the same when the illegal border crossers you're talking about are white middle-class english speaking Canadians. Would this still be such a big deal then?

Lisa, I have been on many hundreds of talk radio shows. The Show 'Political Cesspool' never told me they had any racist connections and no racist topics were discussed during my one interview years back. The whole interview is archived online to prove that. That show has had hundreds of guests and I am certain that most of them are not racists either. You are the only reporter in America that has printed any of that false report. Thanks for making the false accusation I am some kind of racist or participant with the KKK in the state where my family and loved ones are. I'm sure that many of the women and minorities I helped elect to office will find it interesting. I notice your article did not include the parts of our fliers and mission statement about being opposed to racism and welcoming to those of all races. I notice your article failed to mention that I am known nationally for saying hundreds of times that "It will take Americans of every race, denomination, and political party working together to save America." I guess I'm a pretty dumb KKK supporter eh? Did I get that strategy from their "playbook'? I just wish you had the ability and maturity to be able to disagree with me on an issue without abusing your power and the public trust by falsely trying to cast me and ALIAC as racist. Perhaps I will put your picture and name on a flier and write racist KKK underneath and pass those out in black and hispanic communities near you. Do you think that would create a danger for you? Would that help you to understand what it is like when people take the low road and do what you have done to me here in your article? I am not a racist. ALIPAC is not a racist organization. That truth will prevail in the end and you Lisa Sorg are a liar and you owe our black and Hispanic supporters and entire organization an apology / retraction. Consider this your written notice of libel which gives you 30 days to correct the situation. If you do not correct, I'll have our attornies draw up a lawsuit to protect my good name from your defamation. WG

If you actually read my post , William, you were not libeled.

Lisa, Your article clearly attempts to associate me with the KKK and that is libelous. It is false and defamatory and designed to give people the wrong impression about me and my organization in a way that could cost us supporters, cost me future employment, and create Clear and Present danger of bodily harm for those of us openly associated with the group. That combined with the FACT that your description of us is 180 degrees different than our multiple documented appeals to and inclusion of minorities in our efforts. Would you like to hear from some of our minority supporters to let you know how they feel about your attempt to label us as KKK? WG

hmmm.. I'm up in the air on this one. It's a tough call. On the one hand, WG, you DO agree with the KKK on illegal immigration. They're against it, you're against it. Pointing that out isn't really libel, so I don't think you've got much of a case there. Now you can dislike her making people aware that you agree with the Klan on this single point and not pointing out all the myriad ways you disagree with them, but that's not libel that's just slanted reporting and that's not illegal in America. Just ask Fox and CNN. But, it's not all bad news for you. You MIGHT have a case for libel since Lisa DID say that you "proselytize that IMMIGRANTS are disease-ridden criminal invaders responsible for everything from bedbugs to ethnic cleansing." Now if she'd been accurate and said 'illegal immigrants' then you'd be out of luck, but as it is you just might have a sliver of a case. Now you just gotta go to some judge and tell him your story. Good luck. Let me know how that works out for ya.

JohnD, Hopefully, you're not an attorney. If you are you're certainly not going to ever become wealthy giving advice for free. But then I guess that's the only way to give bad advice as an attorney and not get sued yourself, right? Your assertion that Ms. Sorg's alleged libelous slander against Mr. Gheen is without merit, given your analysis of the basis of comparison. As an example, let's say JohnD drives a BMW. So did Charley Manson. I am a writer, publishing a piece on cult murders and I include mention of Charley Manson owning a BMW. No problem so far, right? Well, I know a guy named JohnD who angers me because he publishes views contrary to mine, and I see an opportunity to discredit him in the public venue. I really want everyone to think the way I do because once I convince them that I am better informed and connected than JohnD they will read my publications instead of his and share my view on the issues. As a side benefit once I drive JohnD out of competition my notariety wil increase and I will become more in demand as a writer. That said, I decide to take a jab at JohnD and mention that he too drives a BMW, although it certainly has no real connection to the story I am writing about cult murders. Never mind the tiny detail that the BMWs were so dissimilar because of model, color, and value that they could hardly even be logically compared. Does JohnD have the right to feel slandered? Does JohnD have a right to feel threatened because of my insinuation that he somehow bears resemblance to, or is affiliated with Charley Manson? Will my defense hold water if I base it on the fact that the BMWs were both made in the USA, and therefore there must be some significance to the relationship between Charley Manson and JohnD? Please!! Perhaps JohnD and Ms. Sorg can partner in a used car sales lot. Their skills are being wasted here... I can understand how you (JohnD) might take the issue of illegal immigration so lightly. Most people who have not yet had their lives personally touched by it think that way. Especially the ones making ill-gotten gains from the current situation. I don't know which one of those classes you fit into, but it is certainly one of them. Sure, it's easy to form an opinion based on the facts, but a prudent person would get as many facts as they could before forming an opinion, much less sharing one publicly. I challenge you to investigate both sides of this issue thoroughly before you choose a side to come down on. Snap judgements are bad for individuals and they are bad for our country. Look around you, the evidence is everywhere! To so casually compare violating a country's right to sovereignty with violating the posted speed limit diminishes the integrity of your message out-of-hand. Nice to notice that you quaified your remark with a disclaimer that you too break the law, but it's OK because the penalty is minimal, you don't get caught that often, and you can afford the fine. Outstanding example of exactly what is at the root of this problem in the first place! Let's hope you never hold public office because your kind of thinking is how we came to be here today having this debate on what's right for America. Oh wait, no danger of that happening because you already stated, "I guess really it boils down to the fact that most of the people who are here illegally have already made more real effort to be American than I". Guess that quote kinda shoots down your chances, eh? Ms. Sorg, you stated above that, "The rhetoric of both movements sound familiar, and it is disingenuous to say that the anti-immigration movement doesn't contain serious racists elements". I note that you yet again confuse personal opinion with fact and that is eventually going to get you into a lot of legal trouble. As a journalist you (should) know full well you are crossing many lines of professionalism when you make such statements. Isn't calling someone disingenuous just a "polite" way of calling them a liar? Present some facts to support your assertions and you will be less likely to be deemed a crackpot or "disingenuous" yourself. I've been following this issue for quite some time now and if there are "racial elements" influencing the issue it is typically the pro-illegal biased reporters looking for their niche, or the self-proclaimed civil rights activists pandering to build their base. Don't you think if there was meaningful influence within the groups you personally choose to attack it would have at least been uncovered and publicized openly by now? It's not like you are the first person to jump up on the soapbox and issue that proclamation. Why don't you "infiltrate" one of these subversive elements and expose them for what you espouse them to be instead of setting yourself up for ridicule (or worse)? I can assure you that "infiltration" will not be difficult. My experience has been that all these groups are comprised of Americans, naturalized US citizens, and legal residents of this country of all races who simply want to restore the rule of law and the rights they have earned as citizens. I assure you that you would be welcomed into any one of them and invited to participate until the moment you do or say something hateful or racist. Give it a try and get in touch with a little more fact and a little less touchy-feely emotion. Maybe an apology is in order to Mr. Gheen, as well as a retraction? I'm sure that he would be open to your joining his group and learning for yourself who the folks you were so quick to insult really are. It seems like simply telling you isn't convincing, so why not do what real reporters do and get the facts.

Ok, I am NOT an attorney. However, I did sleep with one last night. At a Holiday Inn Express no less, so let's give this a go. First off, Mr. Wrinkles, libel is defined as: libel 1) n. to publish in print (including pictures), writing or broadcast through radio, television or film, an UNTRUTH about another which will do harm to that person or his/her reputation, by tending to bring the target into ridicule, hatred, scorn or contempt of others. So what "untruth" exactly do you think the Indy has espoused? I have not seen one here. Now, don't get me wrong Wrinkles. If you've read pretty much any of my other posts around the Indy, you'll find that I quite often disagree with them and think they frequently misinform their readers. However, pointing out that someone has the same stance on illegal immigration as the KKK is only libel if they DON'T have the same stance. Just like I can't sue you for libel for pointing out that I agree with Lisa Sorg (God help me) on illegal immigration. Now then to answer the questions you posed: Does JohnD have the right to feel slandered? No. Aside from the fact that it'd be libel not slander, if I do actually drive a BMW then it's not libel. (However, much like people who hate Germans, I don't drive a BMW. Doesn't mean I hate Germans though. Just something I got in common with German-haters.) Does JohnD have a right to feel threatened because of my insinuation that he somehow bears resemblance to, or is affiliated with Charley Manson? Well, I have the right to feel however I want. However, my "feeling threatened" doesn't necessarily mean you're guilty of a crime. I might feel threatened right now because you're disagreeing with me. I have that right. Doesn't make you guilty of anything. And regardless, "feeling threatened" doesn't play into a libel suit. Will my defense hold water if I base it on the fact that the BMWs were both made in the USA, and therefore there must be some significance to the relationship between Charley Manson and JohnD? You don't need any defense! Until you say something untrue you haven't committed libel. And then you're only defenses are a) it is true or b) it didn't harm him or his reputation. Now here's what you could do. You could go and ask Charles Manson what his opinion on illegal immigration is. If you're really lucky, then Manson will say that he thinks it's no big deal and they should just give all illegal immigrants amnesty. Then you can write an article proclaiming "The Independent and JohnD agree with Charles Manson!!" and there won't be a dang thing we can do about it. Unfortunately, since he's got a big old swastika tattooed on his forehead you're probably going to find he's also in your corner on this issue. Oh well. But hey, look I know how you feel. Barbara Boxer and Ted Stevens both agree with me. They're not quite as bad as Manson, but I think they're both idiots. (see how I put that "I think" in there? That keeps it from being libel. Hopefully.) Now, all of that aside, I'll tell you that I have researched both sides of this and I think I do understand both sides of the argument, but I'm willing to listen if you think you have some compelling "facts" that I must not be aware of. For me it comes down to the fact that my great-great grandparents came over here from England on a boat and they didn't fill out a bunch of forms or wait in line for years or ask anyone's permission. They were poor and hungry and hoping for a better life. And they found it. That's how I "earned" my right to be an American. If acknowledging that shoots down my chances for political office, oh well. But tell me, what huge undertaking have you been through to earn your right to be American that leaves you so much more eminently qualified for public office? America was built by people who believed in the mantra "Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free...". Not by those who advocate "Give us your skilled, and educated, and those whose resume indicates they can make meaningful contributions to our society..." As for your belittlement of my speeding ticket analogy, you appear to have missed the point. To make it somewhat more clear, can you honestly say that you have never broken the law? Never once? You've never jaywalked, or sped, or fudged your taxes a hair, or had a drink when you were underage, or killed a hobo in Vegas, or tore that little tag off the mattress that says "Do not remove under penalty of law"? You've never done any of those or anything else remotely illegal? If so, then kudos to you Your Holiness. But most Americans have technically broken the law at some point in their life to some degree. So for me those who use the "THEY COMMITTED A CRIME!! THEY'RE CRIMINALS!!!" argument as their main reason to oppose illegal immigration need a reality check. It's as idiotic as equating jaywalking with killing a hobo. Yeah, they're both crimes. They don't deserve the same response. There are lots worse crimes out there than walking from that patch of desert over there to this patch of desert over here without permission. As for your discussion of racism in the anti-illegal immigration movement, I'm perfectly willing to concede that most of the people who advocate those views are not doing so because they hate hispanics. However, ALL of the hispanic hating racists out there do share those views. That's just your cross to bear on this one.

Ok. I just would like to add something that it might seems little but makes a big different. I just want to remind you, everybody out there, that no human being is illegal. They may be undocumented but that is not reason to call them illegal. Im sure they even have more I.D.´s from their countries(such as passports, driver licenses, ect) that a normal USA citizen who does not even know what a passport is. No human being is illegal. The rest is just burocracy and all of the stuff government and society make to separate ourselves from the other human beings that does not look or act like us. If you think undocumented inmigrants are destroying "America", you better go and leave the country and see what "America" has done with the other countries. We always want to be the victims. The problem is bigger than that.

JohnD, You crack me up fella! I hope that lawyer you slept with was your wife! I concede, give up, no mas...I learned a long time ago you just can't reach some people. I'm not perfect and didn't claim to be, but why is it about me in the first place? Is that how you justify mistakes, by turning the spotlight on the other person? My wife trys that all the time; that way she never has to admit error because it isn't about her anymore. Doesn't work on me when she does it either.... A quick question for Latinon before I go though... If no human being is illegal how do you explain all the prison overcrowding? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you break one law and come here (or overstay your visa) illegally, then you are compelled by the desire to remain here to break a continuous string of other laws to do so. Seems to me that "illegal" is not only an appropriate description, it is becoming a way of life for many. Oh sure, if we would just grant amnesty to all the unfortunate souls who didn't mean us any harm all the other compounding legal violations would eventually fall away too...right? No one forced anybody to break the first law, and no one who did so came here without knowing there would be a long list of other laws needing violation in order to stay. Face it! Once you make that first choice it's just a matter of time until your luck runs out. When it does, face the consequences instead of crying "pity me". I reserve my pity for those who deserve and need it. When I make bad choices I don't ask someone else to take my punishment or pay my bill. Maybe I just grew up in the wrong kind of family or something...We were poor, but we were honest and God blessed us with enough to eat and a roof over our heads BECAUSE we did things the RIGHT way. Back then barging into someone's house and demanding what was theirs wasn't an option. People were kinder then, but most folks knew the difference between right and wrong and the penalty for confusing the two was a lot more harsh than deportation...

Not to worry Wrinkles, the lawyer is indeed my wife, though we're back at home now. If my posts are less lucid now then it's probably the Holiday Inn Express experience wearing off. Now then, let me apologize. It wasn't my intent to "make it all about you". I was merely trying to point out the flaws in your logic in hopes of getting you to move away from the dark side and come join me in the bright beautiful light of truth and happiness. Or at the very least to re-evaluate your position. I disagree with you on illegal immigration, but even if I didn't there's nothing libelous in the article that I can see. That being said, let me add that I while I understand Latinon's sentiment, I don't agree with it completely. To me, the whole "No human being is illegal" is a nonsensical argument. The problem is not that specific people are illegal. The problem is the illegal things those people do. Kucinich has been popularizing this motto and I think it's just asnine. (Yeah, that's another one on my side of the issue. Oh, well, Wrinkles gets most of the racists and I get more than my share of the nutjobs. So be it.) And once again Wrinkles (and this not an attack on you personally!) your reasoning is flawed and therefore unconvincing. I don't believe that entering this country illegally somehow forces a person down a slippery slope into a life of non-stop crime. That makes no more sense than saying that since someone was speeding today they're probably going to break another law tomorrow. Also, you say about your family, "We were poor, but we were honest and God blessed us with enough to eat and a roof over our heads BECAUSE we did things the RIGHT way." Really? So if you hadn't done things the RIGHT way God wouldn't have given you enough to eat or a roof over your heads? Does this mean that everyone in America right now who doesn't have enough to eat and a place to sleep is justly suffering God's wrath for not having done things the RIGHT way? Come on, you're smarter than that. I would counter that the gifts you and your family been blessed with were only by the grace of God. If you do truly think you somehow "earned" those gifts by doing things the right way, you may want to talk with your pastor and get his opinion. I'm not saying your wrong cause I agree it would be really really nice if the world actually worked that way. But working off the assumption that you're Protestant, you'll find your preacher disagrees with you. As do most good people who've had bad things happen to them. But hey, let's look at different story. Let's say that your family was honest and poor and DIDN'T have enough food to eat. And let's say it's not God punishing you for some reason. Let's say that you're working every day all day and at the end of the day, you've got five bucks. Not enough money to buy your family food. And then God provides you an answer. He shows you a place in Canada where you can work and make 8 times what you're making here. It's not technically legal by Canadian law, but there's no US law prohibiting it. And sure you won't get rich, but your family won't starve and maybe your son will be able to have a better life. Do you do it? Or do you just curl up in a corner, give up, and watch your family die? I know the standard argument to that little story is "I'd do something else. I wouldn't give up but I wouldn't break Canada's law either. God would provide me some other way." Easier said than done my friend. And yes, here in America you probably would have that option. I think that's part of what makes it so difficult for many Americans to really empathize with illegal immigrants. Heck, here you could just live off welfare and unemployment and get enough that your kids wouldn't starve in front of you. Also, get away from comparing illegal immigrants to someone "barging into someone's house and demanding what was theirs". What of yours has any illegal immigrant demanded? Lastly, let me admit that you were correct in your initial post that my life has not personally been touched in a negative way by illegal immigration. I suspect the same is not true for you. I'm genuinely interested to know what your experience has been that's helped you form the opinions you have on this issue. As I said before, I'm open to changing my mind if there are facts I'm not aware of, but I just can't in good conscience support the anti-immigration camp on this one even though that's where I find the people I agree with on most other issues (Iraq, abortion, welfare, Social Security, nuclear power, school vouchers, etc...)

Why do these articles all follow the same pattern? People against illegal immigration are 1) racist, 2) in sympathy with the Klan, 3) against immigrants. I get so tired of hearing it. Provide some arguements for why its good to allow 12 million people into our country ahead of those all around the world trying to do it the right way. How do we justify the jobs they take from the most vulnerable in our society? There is not justice in allowing them to be puppets of the corporations who just want to drive down wages? And how do we justify the crowded emergency rooms? The teachers who are weighed down by non-english speaking children. The families who are torn apart by an illegal immigrant who drinks, drives, and kills? Or the child who is raped by an illegal immigrant. I was heartened to see you are not against implementing the 287(g) program. At least you support removing the worst illegal immigrant criminals from our society. And yes, while they are here and contributing so much to our society, they should learn and speak english. It has nothing to do with race or ethnicity and everything to do with assimilation to the american culture -- and yes we do have a culture. If americans were to cross our southern border illegally, the cultures south of the border would expect nothing less themselves. Its time for progressives to stop romanticizing about the issue and address the reality.

Bill, let me address some of these: "Why do these articles all follow the same pattern? People against illegal immigration are 1) racist, 2) in sympathy with the Klan, 3) against immigrants." You're mixing your conclusions and your evidence. YOUR statement was clearly false. But the actual pattern is "Racists, Klan sympathizers, and immigrant haters are all against illegal immigration. Are you?" There's nothing untrue about that statement. "How do we justify the jobs they take from the most vulnerable in our society?" I don't agree that they do, Bill. If you look at the unemployment rates for the US ( http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat1.pdf ) for the last 10 years they've stayed between 4% and 6%. For 2006, unemployment was 4.6%. That's right at 7 million people. If each of these 12 million illegals "stole" somebody's job then the unemployment rate should have been steadily climbing for the last 20 years and should now be more than double what it is. And even that is assuming ALL 7 million people who are currently out of work are looking for a job digging potatoes and just can't find one cause of all them dang immigrants. I find that unlikely. "And how do we justify the crowded emergency rooms? The teachers who are weighed down by non-english speaking children. The families who are torn apart by an illegal immigrant who drinks, drives, and kills? Or the child who is raped by an illegal immigrant." Ok, the healthcare issues and the education issues may need to be addressed. Though, I was at the emergency room at Rex Hospital last month and it wasn't all that crowded and I don't recall being surrounded by hordes of immigrants, illegal or otherwise. That being said, those issues could also be addressed by simply registering the illegals, allowing them to get paid fair wages, and then raking in the extra tax money. Your last two statements there are, however, (and I don't mean this as a personal attack) the absolute stupidest load of crap I've ever heard. You honestly want to judge a group of 12 million people based on the actions of a few single deviant members??? How is that any different from me saying, "We need to deport everyone named Bill. And if we don't, then the next baby that gets killed by a guy named Bill, their blood is on YOUR hands." If someone goes and commits some heinous crime, it has nothing to do with them being here illegally or not! I mean, honestly Bill, by your logic why should we ever let ANY immigrants in? Do you really think you can guarantee that an immigrant that you legally allow into the country tomorrow won't commit a crime? Obviously you can't anymore than you can guarantee that no one named Bill is going to go out and kill a baby. As for your comments about learning english and assimilation, I don't much care one way or the other on that. Obviously those who learn english are going to have an easier time of it. But if they don't wanna, hey free country. I've been to Mexico a few times and never bothered to learn spanish, so I can't really throw stones. I'm not going to learn spanish here either unless there's some cash in it for me. As for addressing reality, let me say that if you really think it's realistic to deport 12 million people who don't wanna go, and whose employers don't want them to go, and you don't even know who they are ... well, then you're working off a different definition of "realistic" than me.

Forget about it Bill! JohnD has his mind made up. I mean really, the guy compares speaking English on a VISIT to Mexico with taking up RESIDENCE in a foreign country but not worrying about speaking the language? Sound logical to you? Maybe we should all just take John's advice and simply move to Canada? No need to work on changing things here....after all it's easier to just give up on our country and invade a neighbor. And let's just overlook remarks about earning things for yourself and doing things the RIGHT way, we can pretend that God's Grace will prevail even if we are wicked or lazy. Leave the preaching to the Pastor John, you might find you are preaching to one and how embarrassing that could turn out to be. Give this a look and see if you can poke holes in it... http://ncvoice.info/commentary.html As for quoting a bunch of numbers compiled by government (the same one that got us into this mess by the way), I'll share a pearl of wisdom with you and suggest you research HOW those unemployment numbers are calculated before you put any real stock in them. As I recall, those are based on unemployment CLAIMS, not including those who have given up looking for work or those who have fallen through the social safety net. I bet you actually believe the inflation figures too, eh? Since numbers are your thing John, invest 14 minutes in something worthwhile and check out the video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265&q=numbersusa&hl=en As for my interactions with immigration, legal or illegal, perhaps my wife could explain it better. She would know, being a legal immigrant of Hispanic origin and all. Guess that tosses out the racist and hatemonger suggestions, huh? Speaking of which, JohnD...I placed my signature and affirmation of trust on a 10 year Affidavit of Support for my immigrant. Ask your attorney spouse to get one of those for you, and the two of you sponsor one immigrant each for the next 10 years. There are around 25-30 million of them hoping for a chance at their dream and you folks look like their best shot! Let's be reasonable here...take the task on one-on-one rather than asking the rest of the taxpayers to do it for you. I put my money where my mouth is, will you? Maybe you'll get a bonus out of the deal and you can learn some Spanish too. You did say, "unless there's some money in it",right? Please post again after you get the papers filled out and submitted. I want to send you a "Thank You" note on behalf of the nation's taxpayers. Oh, and drop by the local ER on a Saturday or Sunday after fiesta. You might want to poll the Social Services offices too around the first of the month, particularly the pre-natal clinic. I've really enjoyed the companionship John, but I won't try to persuade you again...you're way too smart to see the other side of the coin. Don't worry though, if you and those other like-minded individuals get your way you'll see the true reality of it soon enough. Those numbers are gonna catch up to all of us before too long and it isn't going to be as rosy as you think. Even your lifestyle is gonna take a hit, but of course you're better prepared for it than the middle class aren't you?

Lisa, Latinon, JohnD, and others who think the issues along the border are nothing to worry about and that illegal immigration is not really that big a deal, please read this government report for a few additional facts on the topic. http://www.house.gov/mccaul/pdf/Investigaions-Border-Report.pdf

Wrinkles, I read the article you linked from NCVoice and, you may be surprised I agree with pretty much everything it says there. And even more, I think the author James Edwards agrees with me. He specifically quotes Exodus 22: 21 and says: 'The passage reads, "Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt." Such verses call for fairness toward aliens and strangers, the same as how other passages say to treat widows and orphans. Importantly, these passages address treatment of aliens once they are in a country.' I agree with that wholeheartedly. He also talks about desperate circumstances don't make an act moral. I agree with that as well. In fact as I said in my original post, I'm not advocating just free blanket amnesty. I think there should be some penalty that must be paid along with probation. They did break the law. But I don't think deportation is the right penalty. As for the numbers from the BLS, I fully agree with you that they aren't perfect. However, if illegal immigration were significantly affecting unemployment then you would be seeing some sort of trend even if the actual numbers weren't accurate. Unless you think the number of new illegals is happening to match the number of people who've given up on findng work. Also, before you dismiss the goverment's numbers out of hand you might wanna keep in mind that they're ones giving you the "12 million illegals" number. Or do you do like the Indy and just pick and choose which numbers you believe and which you don't, even if they're from the same source? And Wrinkles, there's no need to break out the "my wife's hispanic" argument. Aside from the fact that I don't think you're a racist hatemonger and have never called you a racist hatemonger, that argument hearkens back to the old tried and true "some of my best friends are black". Btw, did YOU actually watch the video you linked? I did and I'll agree that it was pretty convincing (though some of it made me laugh out loud, like when he said his population projections weren't conjecture they were FACT, lol. Hint: when someone tells you they know for a fact whats going to happen in 2050, they're lying.) But, anyways, I'm a little surprised you linked that video. You did recognize that he was talking about LEGAL immigration, right? He was advocating reducing LEGAL immigration down from 1 million plus a year down to one hundred thousand some a year. That's far more likely to affect you and your wife and her family than any illegal immigration reform. In fact let's take it a step further. Let's say Google Video Guy is 100% right with his projections. In that case, since the problem has being escalating since 1965, then going by his graphs it doesn't seem that just reducing FUTURE legal immigrants is going to be enough. If its not, then what can we do that would fair to us hardworking American Citizens who've earned our right to be here? The logical solution would be to revoke immigration status for 800,000 of the 1 million for each of the last 20 or so years. Problem solved. After all, we should be putting CITIZENS first above all else, right? On the bright side, there's a 1 in 5 chance that your wife can stay. Now here's the dirty little secret, Wrinkles. I honestly do agree with you that overall my lifestyle will improve if you guys get your way. That is a 100% true statement. If we just deport those 12 million illegals, then my wages will go up, my wait at the emergency room will go down, and my kids won't have their education slowed by non-english speaking poor kids. And, as Bill pointed out, I've reduced the chance of my child being raped and murdered by some finite, albeit tiny, amount. The only downside for me would be having to find a new favorite Mexican restaurant (I don't know for sure they're all illegals, but it's so good they just about have to be.) However, that doesn't make it the RIGHT thing to do. My lifestyle would also improve if we'd make it a law that all white kids get treated first at any hospital, institute the death penalty for people who cut me off in traffic, and set as policy that everyone who is married to an attorney is immune from getting speeding tickets. There are lots of things we can do that would be morally wrong but still make our lives better. I think the better way to find your position on issues is decide what's the right thing to do, and then deal with the consequences of that.

I said i wouldn't play anymore John, but since you asked questions I'll at least answer them (at least the ones I remember). Actually I do indeed dismiss the "12 million illegals" number as well. I researched that long ago and the number the government quotes has "surprisingly" only gone up by about 1 million over the last 7 years. As I recall, you are the one using that bogus number. Yes, I watched the video and am aware of exactly what it is about. Appreciate you taking the time to look at it too. I wonder if you make your stock investments thinking as you profess about future projections though... Also appreciate your checking out the other link on Biblical views. It would have been nice if you had quoted in context though...But I guess that in itself explains why you have such a hard time getting the big picture. Wish you had offered a response regarding the Affidavit of Support idea...But don't feel bad! I have NEVER, EVER, had one single pro-illegal or open borders liberal offer to do their part to help out these poor helpless people. They ALWAYS dodge that suggestion like the plague because it defines personal responsibility. Give it some more thought John... you can do your part! It's only money, and if you throw your own at the problem instead of trying to compel everybody else to do it for you, just think of the personal gratification you'll receive! Aren't you the guy who said, "It's a free country"? Set yourself free, give freely, embrace those who want it free, free them from poverty! You were right, you're no lawyer but you certainly debate like one. Decide what's right and deal with the consequences.

http://www.adl.org/civil_rights/anti_immigrant/alipac.asp

Ok, the "12 million" came from Bill. I knew it wasn't me so I assumed it was you. I was wrong. My bad. Mea culpa. As for my stock investments, I do have them. I've made some good ones and I've made some bad ones. But I've never made any of them based on what some internet guy says for a FACT is going to happen in 2050. I also don't send money to exiled Nigerian kings. (Well, not anymore.) And if you did watch the video I'm not sure why you posted it. Cause I think I'm actually all in favor of reducing legal immigration even MORE than what he advocates. After all after the amnesty we'll probably have all the immigrants we need, don't ya think? ;-) Also, I don't see how you're claiming I took anything out of context. Heck, I quoted the whole freakin paragraph just so you COULDN'T say that. Share with me PLEASE the "context" you think I left out that changes the meaning of what James Edwards is saying. As for the Affidavit of Support, I checked into that. You got me there. I won't be signing one of those for some random individual. I'd probably sign one for my wife like you did, but not for someone I don't know. I mean, what if I got some drunk driving rapist murderer?? However, I DO think they're a good idea. And I could get on board with an amnesty program for illegals where in lieu of deportation they had to pay a fine, go on probation, and had to provide an Affidavit of Support. According to my wife there's two versions of an Affidavit of Support one for immediate family (which is the one you probably have) and one for employers. If that's the case, then I think this could be a reasonable compromise. Plus, if you agreed to that idea it'd help you separate yourself from the Klan and Charlie Manson cause they'd probably be against it. Look, I'm not looking to let a bunch of terrorists and drug dealers and welfare leeches and rapists and murderers in. But I honestly don't think that most illegal immigrants fall into those categories. In the end, like I said in my previous post, this is a win-win situation for me. If we do the right thing by the immigrants who are here to work hard, contribute to society, and make a better life for themselves (whichever way they got here) then I can feel good that our country is doing the right thing. If we don't, then oh well, my life will be a little better. I'll make a little more money, my kid's school will be a little less crowded, and my wife will be a little happier since we won't be going to the same little Mexican restaurant all the time. Of course, her favorite place is little Chinese joint down the road. I hope they're here legally. It's been fun Wrinkles, I look forward to seeing you on the posts here when we'll agree on something (which is probably most any other topic the Indy writes about). ;-)

Lisa, You are one of only two writers in America that have even mentioned that ADL hit piece. The reason for that is that each attack point in the ADL piece is either deceptive or blatantly untrue. We do not share the same opinion and goals as the KKK as we are a multi racial organization by design and practice and we welcome legal immigrants of all races. Our stance and practice is 180 degrees divergent than the KKK. I do not see those facts in your article and you certainly did not check the points the ADL listed or contact us for a rebuttal and in doing so you have libeled us. WG

WG, Help me out here, which of the attack points in the ADL article are "blatantly untrue" and/or "deceptive"? I read the article and it looks like its mostly a collection of quotes that you've supposedly made. Now I didn't check all of the quotes, but it's got VIDEO of you at the bottom of the page in Hazelton saying all of the things it quotes you as saying in Hazelton. Is it the rest of the quotes that are untrue? Also, the ADL "hit piece" doesn't tie you to the KKK anywhere that I see. Btw, how do you think you're 180 degrees out from what the KKK thinks? They're against illegal immigration, you're against illegal immigration. They think illegals cause higher crime rates, you think illegals cause higher crime rates. You're for legal immigration, they're against legal immigration. I think it's probably more like you're, say, 60 degrees out from what the KKK thinks.

JohnD, Using your logic, then 80% of Americans that are against illegal immigration and informed enough to know the factual association between higher crime rates, higher disease rates, and illegal immigrate are all 60 degrees off from the KKK. That is a load of horse crap. We have our response being prepared. Official notices will be sent to both the ADL, Ms. Sorg, and the Raleigh Indy this week. We are about to take the required steps and proper notifications required before proceeding with lawsuits. You cannot force people that have no association with the KKK into association with the KKK. WG

WG, Are you insane? (Don't sue me! That's not libel, That's just a question!!) First off, you're right about the interpretation of my logic. Well, that is, if you ignore the fact that my "60 degrees off" was pretty clearly FACETIOUS. The point of it was NOT to precisely quantify exactly how many degrees off agreement you are with the KKK, Einstein! I was illustrating that you can not say you are "180 degrees out" (an idiom implying COMPLETE disagreement) from the KKK on the issue of illegal immigration when you AGREE with them on the issue of ILLEGAL immigration. Or rather you can say it, but you can't expect anyone to believe you. (Oh, and just to make it crystal clear for you WG, when I said "Einstein" above, I wasn't REALLY addressing Albert Einstein. I was talking to you.) Secondly, you completely ignored my question, so I'll ask again. What "blatantly untrue" statements has the ADL made? Just copy and paste the statement(s) in to your next post, that'll be fine. The ADL article never makes any mention of the KKK. They pretty much just quote YOU. Are you saying the quotes are fake? And finally, I gotta tell you, I really do hope you sue the ADL and the Indy. Now I don't think you have a hope in Hades of finding a real attorney who'll take the case, but I swear to God I'm rooting for you. Aside from just the intrinsic humor of the Anti-Defamation League being sued for "defamation of character", I think there will be great deal of humor in hearing any judge's response to your suit. I really look forward to hearing further details on the progress of your lawsuit.

The debate here is pointless, people. Lisa, JohnD, and the chivalrous Matt S. (coming to the aid of Lisa in the middle of the fight) have their opinions, and they won't change. JohnD clearly revealed his opinion in his first post, and Lisa weaved her personal opinion so expertly throughout the column, Betsy Ross herself would be impressed. There is no policy or new law that will solve this problem, and everyone knows that. If the laws we have currently are so willingly ignored with no consequence, surely another bevy will be equally received. Those that are pro-illegal immigrant (and please note that I have the fortitude to call them "illegal" as opposed to the much less offensive "undocumented" moniker Speaker Pelosi and Senator Reid have dictated to everyone) think that a one-time amnesty for those that are here will solve the problem. Those that oppose it recognize that it will take action, and by action I mean a physical and visually unpleasant extraction of illegals from this country to alleviate the current leeching of our country's infrastructure. Choosing that path will most decidedly not happen because the media and Hollywood liberals will never allow that to happen because it would seem too barbaric. But, JohnD does start an interesting concept of merely "paying the fine" for violators. But, again, I maintain that the media will not allow this to happen because that would imply a recognition of personal culpability that is anathema to the social agenda we have been force-fed for years now. Rather, I think the fines should be against the big, bad, manipulative corporations that hire these illegals. For every illegal immigrant you employ, the federal government should fine your company $250,000 each day. If you employ four illegal immigrants, your company gets fined $1M per day. Next, the government should set the minimum wage as a per annum amount instead of the per hour amount. Let's just say that the minimum salary for any job in America would be $30,000 per year. Well, that has a negative effect on the mandatory employer taxes that everyone pays, so a major overhaul in the corporate tax structure will be necessary. Moreover, a true (emphasis on the word "true") reform of the welfare program would be needed as well; if the minimum salary in this country were $30,000 would we really need welfare anyway? I think you're on to something JohnD. Commence the fines!

Mr. Wrinkles, consider the source of your video: NumbersUSA, the "immigrant-reduction" group founded by John Tanton, which I mentioned in an earlier post. (Your post essentially validated my point that groups such as NumbersUSA hold significant sway in framing anti-illegal immigration rhetoric.) As I mentioned above, another group Tanton founded, FAIR, accepted money from the Pioneer Fund, which advances a theory of white supremacy. This detail is not insignificant, given the insistence on this wall that anti-immigration groups are "180 degrees" from white supremacy groups. It also goes with out saying, Mr. Wrinkles, that the fact that your wife is Hispanic has no relevance to this debate. That kind of detail we call "ad hominem." But I'm happy for you.

I'd also like to add that William Gheen’s logic, in the video at the bottom of the ADL page, that people from countries suffering from violent crime are themselves predisposed to violence is race-baiting and shameful. ALI-PAC's multi-ethnic membership belies this fundamental reasoning, which has been applied to every major immigrant group in U.S. history.

I'm going to say something here that I very rarely say. I was wrong. In an earlier post I indicated that Mr. Gheen might be able to make a case of libel against Lisa since she left out the word "illegal" when reporting on Mr. Gheen's opinions. However after watching the whole Hazelton speech, that's clearly not the case. I was wrong. When I first went to that website I only watched enough of the video to see that Mr. Gheen was quoted correctly and that they didn't take his statements out of context. He was and they didn't. But going back and watching the whole speech...wow. Just wow. Ok, Matt S. already touched on this briefly but let me echo and amplify a little on this. Here is Mr. Gheen's logic justifying why it's "just common sense" that illegal immigration increases crime rate. 1) Most illegals come from countries south of us. 2) Three of the countries south of us have very high murder rates (Columbia, Venezuela, Mexico), significantly higher than the United States. Ergo, illegal immigration increases the crime rate in the US. Even though according to the FBI, murder rate in the US has been relatively constant for the last 7 years. http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_01.html Seriously it is too funny! He says "Let me ask you a simple question. If you bring in a million people from these countries, is it going to increase your crime rate? Yes. It makes common sense." And THEN just seconds later he says, "In America, we judge people not based on their gender, race, or religion. We judge you on what you do." LOL Um, don't you mean "...unless you're from Colombia, Venezuela, or Mexioc, in which case we figure you're probably a murderer." Wow. WG, if you could have just figured out some way to degrade women in your speech you could have the Redneck Trifecta - racist, sexist and illogical.

Matt, According to the true definition of "ad hominem", my wife's ethnicity perhaps has nothing to do with any debate, but it indeed has much to do with the continuity of the posts. If you read for detail accurately as a reporter, you would have noticed that JohnD asked how I came to have the opinions that I do on immigration. There was nothing "ad hominem" about my reply. Even a simpleton should have understood my point. Of course my personal connection to the issue left you and John both on an uneven playing field, so you decided to "even it up" by attempting to detract from my narrative by disqualifying my opinion. Thanks also to John for reinforcing my point with his half-hearted attempt at dealing with the affidavit of support issue. He of course wants no part of that because he isn't willing to foot the bill for strangers. Sure doesn't inhibit his desire to compel the rest of us to though... No offense John, but that seems like a pretty typical response for the $100K+/yr crowd who base their opinions on the sunny side of life and the rhetoric parroted by the upper class spin doctors. You also mentioned that your kids would be better off if "my side" had it's way. Do you really have any kids? I think if you do you owe it to them to do a little more research. After all, they are really the ones who will suffer if you are wrong and America ends up wallowing in a squalor of our own making.

You know, I think those of use who still respect the USA have failed to fight back against the liberal agenda. Here in NC, illegal aliens have poured in under our noses, we've watched it occur, and no one has made a stink about it. The fact that this state has no respect for the immigration laws and actually encourages illegal immigration disgusts me. I demand that if NC is going to reward illegal aliens with an opportunity to attend public universities at an in-state tuition rate, that they at least give that same rate to all people of this country. I also demand from Mexico that I have the freedom to go down there and buy beachfront property. They currently don't allow foriegners to own land within 10 kilometers of their coast. I live here in Carrboro and I am appalled by the statements made by Mark Chilton at the Nov 20 town meeting. He basically stated that no where in NC, and perhaps the entire United States, is there a more welcoming and friendly town for central americans than Carrboro. What he was saying was, "Hey illegal aliens, come to Carrboro!!!" Liberalism really is a slow road to despotism and this immigration issue is just the tip of the iceberg. Those of us against illegal immigration should join together and refuse to pay taxes to the state until they comply with federal laws to stop illegal immigration. These laws need to be enforced. I don't give a damn what race, ethnicity or country a person is from. If you come into this country illegally, you should be deported back to your country if caught. I have canadian friends who have spent thousands of dollars to follow the path to citizenship. I should encourage those that are still in the process to stop. Why should they spend their money? They can just stay here without the fear of repercussions for breaking the law. I love NC, but this spread of liberalism, especially around the Triangle needs to end. I hope people wise up soon because I would hate to see NC become like CA. Unfortunately, that is the road we are heading down.

"Using the Web and conservative (and some mainstream) radio and television media, their leaders, including William Gheen, the head of North Carolina's ALI-PAC, proselytize that immigrants are disease-ridden criminal invaders responsible for everything from bedbugs to ethnic cleansing." Sounds like defamation and libel to me. Lisa, I expect to see a retraction of this statement in the next Indy and an apology to Mr. Gheen. If you have any journalistic integrity, you will do so.

Lisa, Thanks for making me aware of the North Carolina ALI-PAC. They just gained a new member.

African American unemployment moves between 8% and 10% http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/outside.jsp?survey=ln. In Durham it moves in that range. Corporate employers should promote training and employment of African American citizens before exploiting cheap illegal aliens from other countries. John, I stand by my other statements regardless of your opinions.

"Corporate employers should promote training and employment of African American citizens before exploiting cheap illegal aliens from other countries." There are more than enough training programs and opportunities for legal citizens in this country to better themselves and get a job. There is no reason that a person cannot find a job in the Triangle area. This place is oozing with jobs. The 8% to 10% unemployment rate for blacks in Durham is not due to lack of work, it's due for the most part to lack of motivation. God knows everytime I go to a carwash, a black man comes up to me and asks me for money. These are obviously abled-bodied men. If they can walk around and pander for money, they can go get a damn job. Not once, ever, has a hispanic asked me for money. While I am vehemently against illegal immigration, hispanics work thier butts off and if they are here legally, great. Some comment posters in the black jesus article make my point. They would rather blame the white man than do for themselves. It's the 21st century now. All legal Americans have equal opportunities. In fact, because of affirmative action, blacks have more opportunities, at least at the collegiate level than do whites. Blacks have a better chance of getting into advanced degree programs not because of their ability, but because of their skin color. Employers do not have a responsibility nor should they partake in training opportunities to the general public. Individuals have a right to self-determination. If they are unwilling to provide for themselves, then why should I provide for them. As far as employers hiring cheap illegal aliens, the only way to stop this is for the INS to do random checks at employment sites and impose heavy fines and jail time to offenders. That is the main way to shut off the illegal alien spigot.

Comments that contain personal attacks and name-calling have been deleted from this thread.

Then you should delete your story because Lisa Sorg personally attcked William Gheen and the NC ALI-PAC. This group is clearly anti-illegal immigration only. Their beef is not with the illegal aliens, but with people like you at the Indy and political leaders who support illegal immigration. Most hispanics who enter this country illegally are good hard-working people. That does not excuse them from our laws. It's the people in this country who encourage blatant disregard for US laws and support social welfare for illegals, paid for by US citizens, who are the real problem. You guys at the Indy need to get a grip on reality, lay off the mind-altering substances, and quit blindly following your demigods at moveon.org

Whew! Sundays are a busy day! What was I doing taking a day of rest??? So much to respond to, so little time. Ok, first off, Mr. Wrinkles: kudos to you! While you may be weak on "libel", you are correct that Matt used "ad hominem" incorrectly. Ad hominem means literally "to the man". Or in this case, it would mean ignoring the heart of someone's argument and attacking that person instead (similar to the posts that were deleted, I would assume). Now, I was actually going to mention that when I first read Matt's post, but I was distracted by ole WG and you'd said you weren't coming back so I didn't. However, what I was going to say then was that Matt probably would have been better with saying "your argument doesn't prove what you think it proves" instead of calling it "ad hominem". And I say that auite frankly because being married to an immigrant doesn't mean you are definitively not a racist any more than being married to a woman means you can't be a rapist. Now then, I have to tell you that honestly I'm hurt that you feel my attempts were "half-hearted"! They were whole-hearted and by and large, I agreed with you! The only thing I disagree with is that you're some kind of role model for liberals because you signed an Affidavit of Support. Come on now, are you REALLY comparing my reluctance to sign an affidavit for a stranger with you signing one for your wife?? That's completely bogus. Well, now I'll caveat that by saying if your wife was a mail-order bride then ok. In that case it's a legitimate argument. Otherwise, it's completely bogus. Even then, though, we'd be signing the affidavit due to different motives. I hope. And beyond that, I agreed with you that making an affidavit of support a requirement for illegals seeking to stay in the country would be a good job. All it does is guarantee that they won't end up the public dole. I'm in favor of that. They can get an affidavit from their family or their employer. Now let me also add that I really DO have two young sons but still I'm puzzled by you asking me to "do a little more research". What exactly is it you want me to discover??? I AGREE WITH YOU! Statistically speaking, my kids WILL get a better education if there are no illegal immigrants in our schools when they go to school. I'm not kidding. There is no legitimate data that can refute that. WHich leaves me wondering what "research" it is you want me to go find. Look, if you and your side are successful in doing what I don't have the stomach to do (get all them damn immigrants kids out of our schools), then my kids will be better off. However, it's also a fact that my kids would be better off in school if they kept all of them damn poor kids out of their school too. There's plenty of data out there showing that children from poor families will statistically perform more poorly, cause more classrooom disruptions, commit more crimes at school, and overall utilize more of the teacher's time on a per student basis. And yet, I still find myself reluctant to advocate that all the poor kids (those making <$100k/yr) be kept out of my boys' school. Would you mind working on that for me next after you solve the country's immigration woes? BillC, looking back at my post, I don't see anything there that was my "opinion". Those were facts. Now sure, if you look at a single segment of the population you'll see a higher number. BUT going to the same website you link, those unemployment numbers (much like the numbers I quoted) stay relatively constant for the last 15 years! Which was my point. IF illegal immigrants are "stealing" the jobs of American citizens, then why hasn't the unemployment rate increased over the years as millions of illegals "flood" across our borders? The facts unfortunately don't support what you want to believe. Stand by your statements all you want, nothing anyone can do about that. But they're wrong. Now then, Whoisthat, whew! Ok, let me start by saying I LOVE YOU! You are my new favorite poster! (No offense, Wrinkles!) Whoisthat, you have got just exactly the right mix of righteous fervor, cognitive dissonance, and just plain crazy to make you a bright spot on any comments board! And I'm not just saying that, I'm dead serious. Now then, you say, "Sounds like defamation and libel to me." Golly, I can see how you can feel that way. When you put it all in one sentence like that, it sure does make old WG sound terrible. But did you actually read any of the other posts with regards to William Gheen's statements? Have you watched the VIDEO footage and/or read the transcripts? They're all readily available on the internet. And those statements are the reason why WG's libel suit probably won't ever even be filed. And if filed, certainly won't be found in his favor. Much as you may not like it, old WG states pretty clearly in his speech that he thinks if you let people in from Mexico and points south that they'll probably jack up your murder rate and infect you with TB. Now then, am I clear on this that you DON'T think you're a racist? Cause your sweeping statements about the high unemployment rates of blacks and the work ethic of hispanics would imply that, by most definitions of "racist", you are one. And by that I mean, you pre-judge and develop opinions of people you don't know personally based solely on their skin color. Let me put it to you this way, based on your statements, it would appear that if I knew three regular guys who had been laid off and were now unemployed then you'd think the white guy is out of work because cheap illegal aliens are stealing his job, the black guy is out of work because he lacks motivation, and the hispanic is probably working his butt off so who knows why he's out of work. All of this amazing insight based solely on knowing the race of each one! Also, I love that you can say "This group [ALIPAC] is clearly anti-illegal immigration only. Their beef is not with the illegal aliens..." You don't find people who can make statements like that with a straight face ever day! Ok, let's see here, if I've got this straight, ALIPAC doesn't have a beef with ANY immigrants (illegal or otherwise)? Hmmm...you may wanna check your handbook again, big guy, I think you didn't read the first paragraph all the way through. Btw, Whoisthat, you're not using "pander" correctly in your 3:21 pm post. I think the word you probably want there is "panhandle". I know they sound alike but they don't really mean the same thing. Now just use each word correctly three times and they're yours for life. You're welcome. Take care all, JohnD aka Captain Vocabulary, helping the people of the internet use words correctly one post at a time.

Do you people not have jobs? How do you have time to make all these ridiculous comments? C'mon, Go outside! Talk to a girl!

CrazyJD: "Talk to a girl!" Oh, you make it sound so easy.

I got to this discussion late and as you can see from my above post I felt like there was a lot of posts from people with too much time on their hands. Like me :) I'd like address Wrinkle's statement on the Affadavit and say that I agree with BOTH you and JohnD. I had no idea that this program even existed and I think it's AWESOME!!! Sign me up. I want exactly the same setup as Wrinkle's has, but like JohnD, I don't want a drunk-driving rapist murderer. I want a very hot young female, 17-23 ish, athletic and umms.. adventurous shall we say (nudge, nudge, nod, wink). Also... I don't want to marry her. In fact, my preference would be for my wife to never find out about this. But I'd like to have sex with her whenever I want, that'd be cool. /sarcasm off I'd like to see if we can't all get along. Maybe William Gheen would be happy if we added a couple of more "caveats" to the "pay a fine, be a citizen" plan that JohnD has. For instance, we could insist that they pass a full medical check. I agree we don't want disease-ridden immigrants infesting our pristine hospitals. Also, set up a background check and if they committed felony crimes in their source country, let's not take 'em. Because I don't think Latin Americans are more likely to commit crimes as a race. But I do think people previously convicted of committing crimes are more likely to commit crimes again than non-offenders. Is that racist?

Well, CrazyJD, the program does exist and not only that but it's only a mouse click away! Just go to google.com, turn your safe search off, and then search "mail order bride mexico". You'll be off to the races! I'm not sure you can do it without marrying her, though. You'd have to talk to Wrinkles about that. But surely they can't FORCE you to marry her. I mean this is America! You've got rights. And I will accept your amendments to my plan. Those are all good input. So ok, here's what we've got. If you're here illegally then you get a fine and probation. And then if you pass a medical check AND a felony check AND get someone to vouch for you with an affidavit (employer or family) then you can stick around and get in some kind of citizenship class. Whoisthat is probably going to want to add a caveat that if you're from any African nation then you have to pass some sort of "motivation" test to make sure you don't lack it. I'm gonna go ahead and tell you now, Who, that I'm not going to include that. Sorry. That is just a horrible idea and I'm shocked that you might even possibly suggest it.

Btw, isn't anyone else curious about what was in the post that Jennifer deleted???? I know I am.

Dear John, The only thing more over inflated than your posts is your ego. Now, if you understand what "%" means, I suggest you do some research into labor statistics. Unfortunately here in America, our government likes to keep statistics on people based on race, sex, etc, all the things that keep you libs up at night. What then John, you vociferator of wisdom, explains an 8% - 10% unemployment rate of blacks in Durham? Maybe I was wrong to say lack of motivation. I should have said lack of responsibility. Now I’m getting to my ends before means, but before I go into what you will probably call a neo-con rant about personal responsibility, I would like to hear what you have to say. Did I mention that you are my new favorite lib? Actually Harry Reid is my all time favorite lib. Anyway, I've got to hand it to you, it takes some cojones (you should understand that word) to stand up for illegal immigration, especially when the major majority of the population is against you. Now as to your understanding of Williams Gheen’s logic on crime and disease rates: Let’s assume for a minute that what he said is accurate regarding TB rates. Let’s say 200 out of 100,000 Mexicans have TB. All he is simply saying is that same ratio would apply to Mexicans crossing the boarder. Do you think only non-carriers of TB cross the boarder? I can tell you from experience John, I used to work in an ICU at a major hospital here in NC, I’ve seen it for myself and it is a widely accepted fact and well documented in the public health literature that Hispanics immigrants suffer from more illness and mental issues than do other American citizens. Why? Socioeconomics mainly. Let’s see if you can put 1+1 together here. You see though, John, although they come here for a better life, so do a lot of other people, LEGALLY. What would happen, Captain Vocabulary, if a million white Americans crossed the boarder into Mexico? Us white devils are notorious for our white collar crime. Do you disagree that per capita, the rate of white collar crime in Mexico would go up? Or would only a million honest white people cross the boarder. If Canadians and everyone else from around the world can come here legally, so should Mexicans, Hondurans and everyone else. Call can me a racist again John, and I’m sure because you are a lib and libs can’t debate without following Billary Clinton’s smear playbook, but you can’t deny fact. Well, I take that back. You libs deny fact and reason all the time. I encourage you to put down your Hillary Clinton: An American Journey storybook, quit living vicariously though your wife (I know you mentioned she is a lawyer, but John, you my friend, are no lawyer), and look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself, “Self? Why is it that no one likes me? Is it because I’m such a blowhard? Or maybe because I smell like patchouli. I think I’ll get some therapy.” You can do it buddy. I’m here to lift you up.

Whoisthat, Let me take this a little slower and try to make it a little clearer for you since you must have missed something. My point is that when you make a sweeping statement that the black people in Durham who are unemployed are so because they lack motivation and/or responsibility, you are exposing yourself as not only amazingly ignorant but also as a class A racist. You can see that right? When you see a black guy and say "Hmm, he's black. And he looks lazy. I bet that's why he's unemployed. Huh, this says 1 in 10 blacks are unemployed. They must be lazy too. Screw them.", that's you being a racist. Now then as for your defense of Mr. Gheen. You are once again missing the point. I understand Mr. Gheen's logic, but his assumptions and conclusions are incorrect. I thought this was somewhat obvious but let me again spell it out for you. In the case of murder rates he gets his numbers by taking the three countries with the highest murder rates in Latin America. He then mistakenly uses those numbers to imply what percentage of the population are murderers. However those number actually come from the number of VICTIMS. So when 5 Colombian drug dealers go in to a village and kill 100 people, WG says that's evidence there are 100 murderers in Colombia! And if those same 5 guys go into the next village and kill 75 more people, then WG now counts 175 murderers when the real number is still just 5. But even ignoring this fallacy he then makes the huge (and clearly erroneous) assumption that only immigrants from THOSE 3 countries are coming into America. Now he has to make this assumption because unfortunately according to the same studies he's quoting 90% of the countries south of us have a LOWER murder rate than the US. (You understand percentages right? In this case it means nine out of every ten.) In reality, we don't get our immigrants from ONLY those three countries with the high murder rates. When you look at the weighted average of where illegal immigrants come from vs. their home country's murder rate, it works out that illegal aliens are about as likely to be murderers as any US citizen. He then does the same thing with TB rates. He picks three Latin American countries and tries to make it sound like these are representative. In reality, he's picking the three highest. And this one is even easier to show as a load of crap that people like you buy into because it's what you want to hear. The TB rate in the US has decreased every single year for more than a decade. Every. Single. Year. Here let's test your math skills. If we were really getting 1 million immigrants coming across the border every day with 200 out of every 100k infected with TB, as WG claims, then over the last 12 years how many cases of TB would there have been due ONLY to them dang immigrants? Now I know this a little harder than the 1+1 you like, but you can do it! Here, check your answer. It would mean that over the last 12 years due ONLY to immigration we would have had (200*10*365*12) cases of TB. That's 8.7 MILLION cases over the last 12 years. Now then, does that match with your experience in ICU? Were you seeing a dozen or so hispanics with TB every damn day?? Cause that's what WG's numbers work out to. Now I hate to burst your bubble that I'm some kind of bastion of liberalism that you can idolize. By most empirical standards, I'm a Reagan conservative. I like small government and low taxes. I prefer free markets to controlled markets. I like capitalism over communism and socialism. I prefer nuclear power to burning hog crap. I did 8 years in the military and now I've moved on to get paid the FAAAAT cash by Big Bad Corporate America. And like Reagan, I think some version of amnesty is the only realistic solution. You can bitch and cry and whine all you want about how unfair it is and how evil and criminal and diseased all these immigrants are that you don't like. But that isn't going to change anything. Oh, and I wasn't calling you a racist to smear you. I was calling you a racist because you keep saying racist things. If you'd stop assuming that you know something about a person simply because you know his skin color, then you'll probably find fewer people calling you a racist.

boarder != border

Whoisthat made me laugh with his comment about a million white American "white-collar" criminals rushing the border (or as he likes to call it, the "boarder"). If you have ANY understanding of the current socio-political dynamics in Mexico you would know that the per-capita *white-collar* crime rate would NOT go up. Even if they were ALL criminals. This is because all you'd actually be adding are 1 million new victims. People, there's a GANG war going on in Mexico right now. JohnD's statement about 5 guys killing 100 (though he may not have known it) is right on target. As of October 2007, the number of drug related murders had topped 2000 and this number may be under-reported by corrupt local police. So, while I agree with Whoisthat about JohnD's ego (HUGE!) I would also say that I agree with JohnD that making sweeping generalizations about a group of people based solely on their race is, by definition, racist. Whoisthat talks about the black people specifically in Durham being lazy/unmotivated/lacking in personal responsibility or whatever. I don't think it's because they're black. It's because they live in Durham! Everyone knows that all Durham residents are lazy. I think there's even been an official study done by Duke University proving this. All these people committing crimes... it's not because of their race, it's because they've suffered generations of repression by The Man!

Shhhh!!!! He's very fragile! When you point out his misuse of words it makes him think you have an inflated ego.

And by the way, CrazyJD, I did know about the gang war. Not just in Mexico, but Colombia as well. It's why I brought it up. A little credit here man! When I'm right time after time after time, eventually you gotta recognize that it's not just blind luck.

John, You are a class A fool, not to mention a typical liberal spin meister and liar. You operate in typical liberal fashion by spinning what is said and creating lies to try and pass them off as fact. No one is going to bring people out of poverty and unemployment other than those people themselves. To do that takes 1. Motivation, 2. Responsibility, and 3. A realization that no one is going to do it for you. Now if that makes me a racist, so be it. You never did answer my question about why the unemployment rate in Durham is 8% to 10%. It's because you can't without exposing yourself as a racist, at least by your definition, because you will come to the same conclusions as me. Oh, and I guess I am racist against white people for generalizing them as white collar criminals and calling them white devils. Am I now racist against whites? Your friend, The racist

Ok, let me put it to you this way. Blacks are not the only unemployed people in Durham. So why is that the unemployed white people in Durham don't have jobs? Is it because they're lazy, lack motivation, and/or lack responsibility? If you believe that's the case then you're less of a racist, though still an idiot. But if you think there's some other reason why white people you don't know are unemployed vs. black people you don't know, then I think that makes it pretty clear what you are. And btw, one possible reason for the high unemployment rate of blacks in Durham is an overabundance of people like you in hiring positions in Durham.

Btw, what is it you think I lied about?

Stop attacking JohnD - he is weak and will soon crack. None of you are right, by the way. Whoisthat is cold and unfeeling, and JohnD is far too accepting. JohnD do you allow squatters in your home? Based on your arguments, you must.

Whites and blacks are unemployed for the same reasons: some are lazy, some lack motivation, and some lack responsibility. Also, I'm sure there are a small percentage of folks that are legitimately between jobs and actively looking. My point with blacks is that they, as a group, have a worse socioeconomic status than do whites. This is a known fact. Do whites hold some responsibility - absolutely. We all know the injustices of the past. However, as I have said before, poverty and unemployment can only be fixed by individuals in those circumstances solving the problems on their own. If that thought process makes me an idiot in your world, believe me, you have no respect or credibility in mine. And by the way Captain, I judge people based on their individual qualifications and although I do not personally hire, I do interview candidates and have recommended many blacks that have been hired, even over whites applying for those same positions. Your racism comments are nothing more than pre-judgments based on your liberal instincts. You have them, don't deny it. Hence, you are a liar or a very poor judge of character. Actually, I should not call you a liar based on your perception of reality. I apologize for stooping to your level.

JohnD: You truly appear to be a flaming, left-wing liberal nutjob. And I must say I LOVE THAT ABOUT YOU, man! I wholeheartedly agree with all of your well-thought out arguments. Mainly, I applaud your fabulous use of grammar and vocabulary and your willingness to share your knowledge with others. Hopefully this whole illegal immigration thing will be resolved and you won't have to seek out a new Mexican restaurant. Hillary '08. KT

I'm glad you've been able to see the light and back away from your original comments. For the record, what you said that started all of this was: "The 8% to 10% unemployment rate for blacks in Durham is not due to lack of work, it's due for the most part to lack of motivation. God knows everytime I go to a carwash, a black man comes up to me and asks me for money." Now your last post you seem to have changed your position somewhat. So let me see if I understand your new clarification upon your comments. You now feel that the unemployment rate in Durham as a whole is due to lack of motivation. And then you just happened to use black people as an example to make your point for completely non-prejudiced reasons? Hmm...now that's an interesting spin. It seems to be somewhat contradicted by your followup comments that "no hispanic has ever asked me for money" cause "hispancis work their butts off", but hey, you know what let's let it drop. But let's be clear on which "thought processes" lead people to think you're an idiot. It's NOT the "only individuals can fix their circumstances" one and no here has claimed that. It's the general comments where you profess knowledge a person's character based on knowledge of their skin color. The comments where you pass off stereotypes as irrefutable facts ("blacks are lazy", "hispanics work their butts off") are asinine and racist. And yes you can be racist even when trying to be complimentary. Also the "thought process" which pushes you to believe William Gheen's logic because it's what you want to hear and then when someone clearly and definitively points out the errors in WG's logic you call that person "a liar" and a "liberal spin-meister". And yet never point out what exactly the lies are. Also my "racism comments" to you were not based on my prejudgements. They were based on your statements. That makes them just regular old judgements. I'm not saying I don't have a few small liberal tendencies. I do. I don't hate gays and every now and then I eat some granola. But those tendencies weren't why you came across as a racist. That was all you.

Mattinthehat: Nobody likes a moderate pansy. Or rather, nobody likes a moderate, pansy. Take a side! Are you a right-wing whacko racist or a flaming left-wing libtard nutjob?

Fair enough John.

Kellytil, glad to hear you're on board with getting this whole illegal immigration thing worked out. That's a big help. Voting Hillary '08 probably won't help much towards it, but still, great to hear you hope it will be resolved. I vote we all go to JohnD's house. Sure, he may *prefer* that only people he likes and has "invited" come in, but clearly that's not a priority for him. Once we get in, our worst case scenario is that we pay a small fee, free doctor's exam, and we'll all vouch for each other and sign an affadavit, then we can stay at his place as long as we like. JohnD, I like my beer ice cold, please go ahead and stock up the fridge. Rolling Rock.

You know what, you're right Crazy. If I'm going to talk the talk, I better walk the walk. You guys come on over and sneak in. If you manage to make it in, then you can all stay. I got a huge place, so space won't be a problem. I'm at 200 N. Blount St., Raleigh, NC. If I'm not there when you get there, then just hang out and wait on me. I'll be there soon.