Friday, August 27, 2010
Anybody in Raleigh FOR high-speed rail? No, seriously —
A little history. The state DOT picked a general route for the Southeast High-Speed Rail line from Richmond to Raleigh eight years ago, when nobody was paying any attention and there was no prospect of it being funded in anybody's lifetime. The general route: Right through Raleigh; details to follow (or they don't matter).
So two years ago DOT showed up at City Hall and said the specific routes they had in mind would requiring closing and/or screwing up the streets that connect Raleigh's first successfully revitalized downtown neighborhood — Glenwood South — to the second revitalizing downtown neighborhood, which is the downtown itself.
These were the so-called NC-1 and NC-2 routes, both of which followed — with slight variations — the CSX rail corridor.
No, no, no said the city planning staff, the City Council and Mayor Charles Meeker. PLEEZE consider going through Raleigh another way. They wrote an official letter to that effect.
So DOT went away and studied the city's proposed alternative, now known as the NC-3 route. It follows the Norfolk-Southern rail corridor.
A few weeks ago, DOT was back with NC-1, NC-2 and NC-3, putting Raleigh officialdom in a box. Everybody in Raleigh is "for" high-speed rail. But almost nobody's in favor of the only three options for HSR that DOT has thus far presented.
All of which is prelude to the City Council's hearing on the subject next Tuesday, Aug. 31, 6:30 pm at City Hall.
Remember, the city has already, in effect, said no to NC-1 and NC-2.
Well, last night the vote at the Five Points CAC meeting on NC-3 was 0-81, meaning zero in favor and all 81 of the folks still there three-plus hours after the start of the meeting opposed. (About 150 opponents were there altogether; everybody who left signed anti-NC-3 petitions on the way out, it seems.)
NC-3 may be better than NC-1 or NC-2 in the Glenwood South area, you see, but north of Peace Street NC-1 and NC-2 are rather benign, while NC-3 would do real damage to the neighborhoods in the Five Points area. Or so the residents there believe — and they believe it unanimously.
(Just to be polite, Five Points also voted 65-27 in favor of HSR "being constructed in the Raleigh-Triangle area." But, of course, that assumes DOT can come up with an acceptable route somewhere in the Raleigh-Triangle area. Nobody wants to be against progress, after all.)
From a standing start three weeks ago, when all of Five Points was still blissfully unaware of what DOT and the city had in mind for them, an opposition campaign has arisen and is gaining steam. And, oh, it may be worth mentioning that it's in no way partisan — it's riled-up Democrats and riled-up Republicans joining hands and wondering why the city has forsaken them.
So what will Mayor Meeker and the Council do? They've already said they don't like NC-1 or NC-2.
Will they now:
1) Relent on NC-1/NC-2, while perhaps asking DOT to consider tunneling the project or, if it stays at-grade, to let the cross streets remain open?
2) Endorse NC-3 over the growing chorus of opponents in the Five Points, Roanoke Park and Glenwood-Brooklyn neighborhoods?
3) Telll DOT that none of the three alternatives are acceptable, and that unless a better way through town can be found, either the HSR line should go around Raleigh or the city will be forced to advocate for the "no-build alternative" that, as Planning Director Mitch Silver told the CAC last night, is inherent in any transportation alternatives process.
On the periphery of the meeting, meanwhile, an unofficial "NC-4" idea was floating around in the form of a map showing HSR coming into Raleigh from the north on the CSX tracks but then cutting over to the N-S tracks via a railroad bridge/rail platform that would span Capital Boulevard. Like this:
(Or, to see it in all its glory: FINAL_TheMap_FivePager_Option1SEHSR.pdf)
If you're following along at home, the best way to get such an NC-4 alternative on the table now, it seems, would be to suggest that NC-1 or NC-2 could be acceptable if "mitigated" — that's government-speak
for why didn't we think of this in the first place? — by the addition of a cross-Capital Boulevard RR bridge.
***
What's interesting to me is that nobody on the city planning staff seems to know whether Raleigh took a position for, against or neutral eight years ago when DOT made the call to punch the HSR project through the center of town. Nine alternatives were studied back in 2001-2, we're told, before the "go through the middle" alignment was picked instead of, for example, using the current Amtrak route that comes to Raleigh via Rocky Mount. I'm trying to find out more about that, not that it matters much now.
Comments (26)
Showing 1-26 of 26
Yes, there is an anti-high speed rail organization. Its called the Republican Party.
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I've lived in Five Points for 15 years, though I've been away in NJ for the last couple. I just moved back a few weeks ago and got slammed in the face with this issue so I'm trying to play catch-up. Can anyone explain why the train must come through downtown Raleigh?
The city inside the beltline has flourished in recent years and has become an incredibly desirable place to live, in my opinion. (property values would seem to confirm this). So for those of us who don't just come downtown to work or for entertainment - those of us who actually make our homes here - a train running through our streets several times a day sounds like an appauling proposition. Does anyone know how often these trains will run, how loud they will be, etc or where I could find that information?
And yes - that goes for everyone.. Most places with a serious rail system (NY, NJ, PA, DC, SF, etc) - are better for it, we need to be thinking forward. Raleigh with a serious rail program is a better city to work in, live in and play in...
Why not build a high speed train station near the beltline and run "trolley lines" through the cities major train routes.. ?
I dont care what they do elsewhere. Make it into a tunnel from Jones to the new Union Station and put a pedestrian mall on top of everything. Lets spawn future development there and link all of downtown. This is a major opportunity that needs to be taken advantage of.
@gercohen1:
I greatly appreciate the incredible amount of time donated by the members of the PRTF to helping bring Raleigh's transit options into the 21st century. We can and should disagree with their recommendations without personally vilifying the persons themselves.
@Nimby5000:
The "some houses along railroad tracks" you refer to are homes in historic districts cared for greatly by their residents, you need to look at the specifics instead of using stereotyped generalities to make an informed opinion on this situation. Have you even been in these neighborhoods? I think not.
@Raleigh Losers:
The NO on NC3 citizens are *FOR* the SEHSR! What are you talking about here? We just want to promote better options for transecting downtown Raleigh. To say this is just a bunch of whiny snob NIMBYs is taking an ignorant, simplistic, easy-way-out of discussing the reality of this issue. Your comment indicates you are woefully misinformed.
Also, see "NC4".
@ct:
I am coming to see that the new alternative nicknamed "NC4" is looking like a potential win/win as well. Now this is the kind of thinking me and my fellows who oppose NC3 have been seeking. Here's hoping to some fruitful discussion from here on out... we do need this project after all.
From the Edgerton Diamond near Atlantic/Capital to North Street in Glenwood South a revised NC 4 route (or a mitigated NC1/2 alternative) will require taking approximately 7 properties near Peace/West/Harrington. These properties have a total tax value of less than $7 million (which is very likely close to FMV in today's market). The properties along NC3 to be taken in this same area will be tens of millions and perhaps in excess of $100M (the impacts to the NS yard alone could be tens of millions of dollars).
Keep in mind that the land acquisition costs are not included in the current NC3 cost figure which already runs close to $50 more than the unmitigated NC1/2 alternative. Further, environmental mitigation expenses (sound and/or controlled access walls/fences) are also not included in the existing cost estimate for NC3. Add millions more for that as well.
NC is far too expensive . . . and . . . it is much more harmful to the entire Raleigh community. This is not just about one neighborhood at one particular point in time. This is a big project that will be with us and folks in these neighborhoods for 100+ years and impact how City residents can get in/out and around downtown for the forseeable future. Lets be smart about this . . .
Thanks for the compliment, CT. If this is such a good idea, then it will support itself without billions of our tax dollars. Guess what - it won't. Do you know how hard this country worked to build a platform to house the statue of liberty or to raise money to carve Mt. Rushmore? Now, we just write a check (aka borrow money from China). We cannot keep borrowing money to pay for projects like that that just don't make sense.
That's nuts. Nobody is spending money for Raleigh-Richmond as endpoints -- that's a red herring. This is all about Raleigh-Washington in 4 hours, Raleigh-Philadelphia, Raleigh-NY, etc, as well as Charlotte-Washington, etc. The opportunity to save time, money, and fuel is clear to those of us who travel between those endpoints. Have you priced a walk-up ticket from RDU to DCA lately?
What about the fact that Richmond, Raleigh, Wake Forest, Charlotte, and all the cities in between do not have the public infrastructure required to support passengers arriving via rail? So, in 2020 when this thing is "ready", a business trip to Richmond looks like this (in today's $$'s): I take a cab from my house to the Raleigh train station ($35), a rail trip to Richmond ($120), a cab to my customer's office ($30), a cab to take them to lunch because I don't have a car there ($10), a cab back to their office ($10), a cab back to the train station in Richmond ($20), a return trip to Raleigh (included in price above), and a cab back to my house ($35). Did I save any money? NO. Did I save any fossil fuel? NO.
Folks, we are not in Europe (and don't want to be - remember - we left there about 250 years ago).
EXCERCISE COMMON SENSE AND TELL THE RAIL TO GO AWAY!!!
"If there is no other feasible and prudent alternative". There's the loophole. No telling how many NRHP properties have been lost through this loophole nationwide. All NRHP gives you is a reference point when you sue in court, if you have the money and the will to do so. Note the "and" in "feasible and prudent", which makes it easier for a governmental entity to use the loophole.
For what it is worth here's a link to a survey sponsored by Capital Area Friends of Transit (CAFT) for SEHSR
High speed rail service is coming to Wake County with a stop in Raleigh. The deadline for public feedback on route location options has been extended to September 10, 2010! Please submit comments that support this major transit improvement and select a route option that you feel is the most successful. Click the link below to complete the survey:
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/SEHSR
We are all for high speed rail as long as it doesn't cause any problems near my house. We are all for high density development in Raleigh as long as it doesn't cause any problems near my house (Oberlin Towers). We are all for publicly funded art projects as long as they not too avant garde (Plensa project).
I find it hilarious that the City of Raleigh headed by a claimed environmentalist Charles Meeker and a City Council which has stated that traffic control is one of its highest problems is potentially against this project.
Also, I find totally distasteful and hypocritical that the Independent (which recently ran a full page article about electric cars) is trying to derail this high-speed project.
I'm not surprised that your paid hack writer Bob Geary is a hypocrite, but I was surprised that the Indy weekly is talking out of both sides of its mouth by giving attention to an upscale neighborhood that may experience some discomfort. They moved next door to Capital Boulevard, a high speed thoroughfare and pre-existing train tracks and now they are complaining?
Unlike poor people who usually don't have a choice in which neighborhood live in, these uber-wealthy folks ($400,000 to $1,000,000 homes) could afford to live elsewhere but they didn't. Maybe they should move out by the airport and then complain about airplanes flying over.
Indy weekly is turning its back on the environment, but I guess they don't oppose high speed rail either as long as they can generate some controversy out of it to sell some advertisements to bars near Glenwood.
Regarding the previous comment:
“the homes nearest the Five Points NC-3 option could simply be seized under eminent domain and the property owners cleared out and compensated.”
No, actually you can’t do that. The houses in question are located in the Roanoke Park Historic District and listed in the National Register of Historic Places. The district is protected under federal law. As stated in the Chapter 5 of the DEIS – “These lands can only be used for a federally-funded transportation project if there is no other feasible and prudent alternative…”
And NC1/NC2 are obviously feasible alternatives. So it seems to me from the guidelines listed in the DEIS, that the NC3 option would be illegal and cannot be chosen.
Why is NC4 less expensive? Wouldn't taking the more expensive properties along Peace Street be more expensive than taking some houses along the railroad tracks? The houses built along railroad tracks aren't usually the grandest houses.
Affordability of SEHSR -- such as it is -- is 100% predicated on using an existing rail corridor. There's no point in suggesting that a new railroad be built from point A to point B.
NC4 seems like a reasonable solution to me.
As for glenwoodbrooklynite's comment, about 70 homes within 200 feet of the NS could be bought out. At an average value of $300K each (per Zillow), we're talking about $20M.. which is mice nuts compared to a project the size of SEHSR. The NC4 bridge would probably cost $20M.
How about have a HS rail run to RDU - RTP, use it as a transportation hub (already has the infrastructure of the highway/interstate, parking areas, etc.) and then have a light rail/hybrid buses, etc. to downtown Raleigh, downtown Durham, Chapel Hill and later on maybe even to Apex, Wake Forrest, etc. We should all be one Triangle and share such an expensive and long term investment as HS Rail.
G. Cohen . . . I applaud your position on the PRTF and understanding the damaging impacts of NC3 - many of which are not even in the EIS (i.e. homes that will be impacted/taken and lack of ANY mitigation). These omissions will make NC3 even MORE expensive than NC1/2. The "mitigated" NC1/2 is the real win/win. Raleigh's new Comprehensive Plan even states that long-term rail projects should NOT be confined to existing rail corridors - particularly in the downtown area. See Transportation Section of Comp Plan. Also, the Edgerton Diamond should be bridged to take passenger rail traffic over it. The approach to that intersection lends itself to take a rail bridge over top given the existing topography along the route from Atlantic Ave (from Wolfpack Drive Capital). There is a significant elevation change for existing rail which can be utilized for a new HSR route to gradually rise and travel over the Edgerton Diamond and onto the "mitigated" NC1/2 route. Further, these alterations would solve the West/Harrington and Center Platform issues identified by the City planning staff proposing NC3, and avoid devastating impacts to downtown neighborhoods that would effectively wall them ff to a future developing Capital Blvd Corridor.
I want to preface my comments by saying that I was the one member of the Passenger Rail Task Force to vote no on the 7-1 vote, because I did not think that all the crossing closures mandated by NC1/2 were really necessary and because I thought the disruption to Glenwood-Brooklyn, Norfolk Southern Rail operations and other neighborhoods, as well as additional property takings were worth the operational benefits of NC3. That being said, the comments of LB above that the project would take four years and other construction comments are really distortions and out of context. The entire Richmond-Raleigh project would take 4 years, the stretch from north of Georgetown Road down to Peace Street would probably take 6-9 months to build. That's not to minimize the disruption though. The new NC4 alternative (or a "mitigation to NC1/2" name that federal regulations might require it to be called in order to not start the process over) seems a real win-win -- no Fairview closing, no disruption to NS yard operations, Glenwood Brooklyn and other neigborhoods, no Harrington and West closing, the ability to have a center platform down at the new Union Station -- in fact the ONLY thing the NC4 does not have that NC3 did was eliminating the crossover at grade north of town between NS and CSX. The cost of a 1200 foot rail bridge between just north of Logan Trading to the NS trestle near west street would surely be less than the extra cost that NC3 had over NC1/2. There are lots of elevated rail bridges arond the world, there arelots of elevated highway bridges, nothing new here. NC4 has not been really vetted operationally or costwise, and I know that there are several issues of disruptions to historic properties such as the Cotton Mill across from Logans, but this alternative seems a really great potental solutin at first glance. I've been involved in transit issues in the Triangle for almost 40 years and hope that this novel isea can get us out of the box. I would ask that folks NOT villify those who favored NC3.
ct,
That is a very long line of homes you are talking about, Five Points and Glenwood-Brooklyn are affected. I don't think they are even counted in the Affected Structures matrix in the DEIS either.
For the money that SEHSR will cost to complete, *other options* such as the one attached to this article are worth developing instead of the weak offerings the current three alternatives provide Raleigh.
For the money that SEHSR will cost to complete, the homes nearest the Five Points NC-3 option could simply be seized under eminent domain and the property owners cleared out and compensated. That's called "hardball" but it happens all the time in road construction and occasionally in airport construction.
There is no feasible way for the train to bypass Raleigh, and Mitch knows that.
Wake up those still sleeping people in Five Points! Anyone who thinks that this railroad will not affect you because it's several blocks away and its too far into the future, think again. Construction on this project is scheduled to start in 2014 and last for a minimum of four years, if they're able to complete it on time. Picture bulldozers, cranes, monster backhoes, jackhammers, dump trucks,freigh rigs, workmen in perpetual motion up and down our streets and in the work zone 8-10 hours a day and perhaps on saturday. our homes our park our streets will be blanketed in filth and the deafening noise will be omnipresent nearly non-stop. It will make the "sewar repair" look like a manicure. This is your investment, your life. You can't make a difference if you don't shout out loud with your presence. This public hearings is for the purpose of giving you at least a toehold into effecting the outcome of this proposal.
CIty Council [7:00 PM - 9:00 PM] Public Hearing On Proposed High Speed Rail Service Location: 222 West Hargett Street, Council Chambers
Bring your kids, neighbors, family, local business owners.
We are here! We are here! We are here!
Most of us were not just being polite when indicating we support high-speed rail in Raleigh. Our support makes adds to the frustration with the entities who "settled" on the bad-to-horrible options... it doesn't have to be this way.
And we *know* NC3 will do real damage to our neighborhoods. And we know it unanimously.
How about a small group of neighbors coming together and raising intelligent questions, who knew nothing of NC-3 three weeks ago I might add, and making City/ State Officials/Staff looking like no more than Beavis and Butthead reruns scrambling to provide answers to studies they have been conducting for EIGHT years?
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