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Tuesday, September 1, 2009

Van Dyk won't say if he pushed the anti-Crowder poll in District D race

Posted by Bob Geary on Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 8:52 AM

After the fifth or sixth person asked me if I knew who was behind the push poll in District D (Southwest Raleigh) last week, I started calling it "the push poll" myself. But since push poll is such a dirty term in politics, let's not jump ahead of ourselves. There was some automated calling done in the district. A recorded voice asked "questions" about the District D incumbent, City Councilor Thomas Crowder -- questions that were not really questions at all. They were along the lines of: Would you vote for Crowder if you knew that he (insert criticism or innuendo)? Well, would you still vote for him if you knew that he (insert additional criticism or innuendo)?

You know, like push polls do.

I called Crowder's opponent, Ted Van Dyk, to ask him if he knew who did the poll. "There are interested people" who did it, he said. "There was a poll done ... I did not have direct grimy hands on the questions ... I am party to the information [collected]."

In short, if he knows who took it -- and presumably he does, because he acknowledged getting the results -- Van Dyk wasn't saying. I finally asked him if he was the client. Was it his poll? "I'm not going to say it is my poll, and I'm not going to say it isn't," he said.

On one point, though, Van Dyk was definite. "It was not a push poll," he insisted.

So what is a push poll?

Quite simply, it's a smear campaign disguised as a poll. Political candidates often "test" negative messages for possible use against their opponents. One might legitimately ask, for example, whether you'd be more or less inclined to vote for Bev Perdue if you knew that she supported a 1-cent sales tax increase? If you knew that she is pro-gay rights. That kind of thing. Test 'em out.

But at some point, the test is over and the calls aren't polling anything, they're just pushing out a negative message with far more calls than any legitimate survey would require.

The anti-Crowder poll started by asking whether the recipient of the call backed Mayor Meeker. What about Crowder? What about Crowder if you knew that he frequently votes against the mayor? (A statistic was offered, but with no context for understanding what it meant, and I won't repeat it.) What about Crowder if you knew he had an unlisted phone number? (Not mentioned: He has several listed phone numbers.) The questions kind of tailed off from there.

Then there's the fact that this is not the first time such messages have been "tested."

I called Dean Debnam, president of Public Policy Polling in Raleigh and a neighbor of mine (and of Ted's) in Cameron Park. PPP specializes in automated polls, sometimes for clients, sometimes for publicity value. (When it's the latter, they're eager to tell the press everything.)

A few weeks ago, when a very similar "poll" was conducted about Crowder, I talked with Debnam and he acknowledged that it was his poll -- just a routine poll like he does in many local races, he said.

But this time around, he didn't return my call. So I don't whether this was also a PPP poll or not.

PPP's Tom Jensen, Debnam's aide, did respond to an email, but only to say that he wouldn't say if the poll was theirs and, if so, how many voters were called.

"PPP does polls that it releases to the public, and others that, for a multitude of reasons, it doesn’t," Jensen said.  "The polls we release publicly, we talk about publicly, and those we don’t, we don’t."

Now it's common knowledge that Debnam, who owns a number of businesses in addition to the polling firm, and who contributes a lot of money to Democratic candidates, used to support Crowder but now despises him. The reason: Crowder was the architect on a project that Debnam started and abandoned. Debnam blames Crowder. An arbitrator sided with Crowder and said Debnam owes Crowder money. They're in court now, with Debnam suing to have the arbitrator's decision set aside. (The N&O did an early story about it.)

A big problem in determining who did the poll is that, according to everyone who took the calls, the polling firm did not identify itself. Greg Flynn, a regular contributor to the pro-Democrats BlueNC blog, thinks the law requires such disclosure. He points to this statutory language, enacted in North Carolina six years ago to protect folks against unwanted telephone sales calls:

§ 75‑104.  Restrictions on use of automatic dialing and recorded message players.

(a)       Except as provided in this section, no person may use an automatic dialing and recorded message player to make an unsolicited telephone call.

(b)       Notwithstanding subsection (a) of this section, a person may use an automatic dialing and recorded message player to make an unsolicited telephone call only under one or more of the following circumstances:

(1)       All of the following are satisfied:

a.         The person making the call is any of the following:

1.         A tax‑exempt charitable or civic organization.

2.         A political party or political candidate.

3.         A governmental official.

4.         An opinion polling organization, radio station, television station, cable television company, or broadcast rating service conducting a public opinion poll.

b.         No part of the call is used to make a telephone solicitation.

c.         The person making the call clearly identifies the person's name and contact information and the nature of the unsolicited telephone call.

(2)       Prior to the playing of the recorded message, a live operator complies with G.S. 75‑102(c), states the nature and length in minutes of the recorded message, and asks for and receives prior approval to play the recorded message from the person receiving the call.

(3)       The unsolicited telephone call is in connection with an existing debt or contract for which payment or performance has not been completed at the time of the unsolicited telephone call.

(4)       The unsolicited telephone call is placed by a person with whom the telephone subscriber has made an appointment, provided that the call is conveying information only about the appointment, or by a utility, telephone company, cable television company, satellite television company, or similar entity for the sole purpose of conveying information or news about network outages, repairs or service interruptions, and confirmation calls related to restoration of service.

(5)       The person plays the recorded message in order to comply with section 16 C.F.R. Part 310.4(b)(4) of the Telemarketing Sales Rule.

(6)       The unsolicited telephone call is placed by, or on behalf of, a health insurer as defined in G.S. 58‑51‑115(a)(2) from whom the telephone subscriber or other covered family member of the health insurer receives health care coverage or the administration of such coverage, provided that the call is conveying information related to the telephone subscriber or family member's health care, preventive services, medication or other covered benefits. (2003‑411, s. 3; 2008‑124, s. 10.3.)

Flynn, too, tried to reach Debnam and couldn't. But Debnam did respond to a Flynn post on Facebook, saying polling firms aren't covered by the language Flynn was citing. Flynn told me he plans to pursue that issue with the state Attorney General's office.

Crowder didn't want to comment on the poll. "I will run a positive campaign focused on my accomplishments and goals," he said in a one-line email he sent a few minutes later.

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Greg when you file a complaint perhaps you should do it on your own time. I assume that you were at work on Thursday August, 27 at 10:26AM when you wrote the NCDOJ. If I'm wrong please let me know before I file a complaint with the State. Unlike you I would actually like to be sure before I make wild unfounded accusations. Also thanks for being clear about your motives for filing the complaint which in fact have nothing to do with the State law but your personal support of Crowder. Good job on working in my legal dispute with Crowder into your complaint.

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Posted by Dean Debnam on September 2, 2009 at 6:48 PM

I did file a complaint with the AG's Office. I received written confirmation today in the form of a copy of a letter from the AG to PPP which has 10 days to respond. I happened to speak with a former member of the AG's Office this weekend who agreed that disclosure is required in NC. I like PPP, the product is good, the polls are generally on the mark. I don't mind responding to the polls but I don't understand the problem with disclosure, which I believe is specifically required by NC law, not national law. It's a little hard to complain to the AG if you don't know who to complain about. I figured it out and will let the AG decide. I don't speak for BlueNC but it would wrong to assert that BlueNC embraces PPP's practices.

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Posted by gregflynn on September 1, 2009 at 11:36 PM

Dean -- Thanks for writing. There is indeed a Crowder sign in our front yard, and a Stephenson sign too. I know my wife is supporting them and has contributed to their campaigns; I don't know how much. (I'll find out when the campaign finance reports are filed.) Our policy at the Indy is that the writers and editors don't make contributions or personal endorsements, so I don't. We do endorse candidates collectively, however, as you know. And our motives -- and my own as a participant in the process -- are the same as yours: We try to help good people get elected, based on shared progressive principles and our assessment of their leadership abilities. If they're elected, we pay attention to see if they're living up to our billing. It's obviously a judgment call, since it's rare that any functioning politician is going to agree on every tough issue with someone like me who has the luxury of deciding for myself what I think is right without reference to what anybody else -- or any political party -- might think. In the six years I've known him, however -- we met when he first ran for Council -- Crowder and I have been in agreement on almost all of the important issues he's dealt with in office. So yes, as a result of that accord -- the fact that we do tend to see things the same way -- we've become friends. I hasten to add, though, that I also consider Ted Van Dyk a friend even though we've often disagreed on city issues. If Ted's elected, I expect he and I will continue to be friends, and continue to disagree. I'm friendly with Philip Isley too, and with James West, though we almost never agree on anything. Hell, I'm friendly with you, even though we're not seeing things the same way about this subject, apparently. I know you're not insinuating that I somehow benefit from anybody's election, but just in case anyone might misread what you've said, I get nothing -- not a dime, not a ticket to a dance, not even my phone calls returned in many cases -- as the result of anyone winning or not winning office. I only get, as you do, a better city and state to live in if good people win office and do the right thing. My note to the Cameron Park listserv yesterday was about a public policy issue in Raleigh that effects my neighbors, and yes, Ted was on one side and Thomas on the other, and not that it controls me in any way, but the officially adopted neighborhood position was one that I supported and that Thomas also supported. Which I reported. End of story. I didn't say anything in that note that I haven't said many times in many ways before in the Indy. I don't kid anybody about what I think. Nor do I play games or favorites or decide what to think based on who else thinks it too. Or at least I try not to -- I can't say that I've never been wrong, never been taken in. On the subject of your legal dispute with Thomas, it's true that when you and I last talked, I said I didn't want to get into the details of it with you just as I didn't want to with him. (Not that he offered. In fact, he's never tried to argue his side to me.) I have enough problems trying to understand health care reform, the Raleigh comp plan and state tax policy without attempting the parse the details of a contract dispute that, in any case, will be settled -- and elucidated -- by a judge. I did think, in writing about the poll in question, that readers would be served by knowing the genesis of your dislike for Crowder.

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Posted by Bob Geary, Indy Staff Writer on September 1, 2009 at 6:56 PM

Bob, You are correct in reporting the essence of my opinion of Crowder: he shouldn't use political office for personal gain. It is curious that you told me that you didn't want to know anything about our business dispute. Do those facts not interest you? While we’re on the subject of disclosure (since it seems to interest you so much), what is your relationship with Crowder? His campaign sign is in your yard and just yesterday you used the Cameron Park neighborhood list serve in support of Crowder, while implying that Ted Van Dyk's position was at odds with the majority of the neighbors, which I don't believe is true. Are you using the trust The Independent has built through the years to advance the cause of your personal political candidate? At a minimum, shouldn’t you come clean and disclose to readers your personal campaign connection to Crowder? Aren’t your readers entitled to know that you have a longstanding political and personal relationship with Crowder when they read your stories about the city council election? As to Flynn’s post, I find it strange that he has never heard of a poll before that didn’t identify the pollster or the purpose of the poll. PPP has done hundreds of polls in NC and nationwide that don’t identify us at the pollster or who the work is being done for. . I am also quite sure that anyone with any political knowledge, including Roy Cooper, is familiar with PPP’s work and how we do it. As a pollster, I am used to, those who love me when my polling results support their opinions and hate me they don’t. To finish on this topic I am very used to being attacked but generally it is by people who don’t hold largely the same worldview as I do. In short, based on the legal advice PPP has been getting in the past and which I have just reaffirmed, pollsters don’t have to reveal their identity or the identity of their clients and the national Do Not Call List rule does not apply. Even with Flynn’s threat that he is taking this to the AG’s office (I guess he thinks they are all deaf, dumb and blind to have missed this practice for so long), PPP won’t be changing its practices, practices that BlueNC has embraced. While I am well known as a Democratic pollster and a supporter of progressive causes, PPP does have paying clients that we owe a duty to, including confidentiality. When we are paid for a poll, the work product belongs to the customer and it isn’t our prerogative to discuss it. It has always been our practice to publish the work we chose to do on our own to inform public debate. So Bob, please be as clear and transparent about your motives and positions as I have. I help good people get elected and I work to help remove bad public officials. It’s clear where I stand on Crowder. What about you? P.S. For those of you who may not know me, I’m not part of “the pro-Big-Real Estate/pro-developer crowd”. In fact I am always on the other side of the fence.

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Posted by Dean Debnam on September 1, 2009 at 4:57 PM

Every election since he first ran, the pro-Big-Real Estate/pro-developer crowd has tried to smear Crowder in every possible way they can conceive. When will they just leave the man alone? Run against him on the issues in a fair campaign, fine. But the smears have got to go.

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Posted by RaleighRob on September 1, 2009 at 12:09 PM
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